Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Russia's attack disproportionate
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 9>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russia's attack disproportionate
    Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:35
How the hell is it even possible that OS separatist are still armed (even with heavy artillery pieces) after so many years with Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.

The Russian peacekeepers have done a really poor job in my opinion.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:36
At the moment Putin, of course.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:50
Two very interesting articles in my opinion about this whole conflict and future geopolitical implications. Both in Russian though, sorry (just checked, imo google translator is quite good)

The first one is from Russia, interesting to note that there are people who think differently there, not so emotional.
http://www.ej.ru/?a=note&id=8288

Second one from Ukraine and focuses on geopolitics.
http://politics.in.ua/index.php?go=News&in=view&id=10428


Edited by Roberts - 12-Aug-2008 at 00:51
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 01:11
Originally posted by Roberts

How the hell is it even possible that OS separatist are still armed (even with heavy artillery pieces) after so many years with Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.

The Russian peacekeepers have done a really poor job in my opinion.
 
OS separatists weapons are much inferior to those the Georgian army has. The recent fighting proved it.
 
The peacekeepers' job isn't disarming the conflicting parties.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Seko View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Spammer

Joined: 01-Sep-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 01:12

Can someone give us the cliff note version of what the links say?
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 01:37
Originally posted by Roberts


The first one is from Russia, interesting to note that there are people who think differently there, not so emotional.
http://www.ej.ru/?a=note&id=8288
Actually this "krovavoe gebyo" type of attitude is quite emotional.
 
 

Second one from Ukraine and focuses on geopolitics.
http://politics.in.ua/index.php?go=News&in=view&id=10428
This review is apparently very balanced. Although I think that this idea that all this story was orchestrated from Washington questionable. I would say USA is not in good position either. Basically author claim that Washington is interested Russia to go as deep into this coflict as possible as this will mimick problems of USA in Afganistan and Iraq. I think that if Russia stops in the border of SO or around and keep status quo but wih recognintion of SO and Abhazia she will get much more dividents than USA. I don't either think that similar situation can happen in Ukraine and even more unlikely in Baltic countries as those states declearly behave in a more civilized way. Instead, Russia will use here economical ways of influence.  Finally, territorial integrity of Ukraine is not questioned by any thinking person in Russia. But obviously Russia will do its best to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO.
.
Back to Top
Zagros View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor

Suspended

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 04:11
A probable explanation for the indiscriminate attacks on Ossetian civilians: Israeli warfare tactics.

Israel 'has a hand in S. Ossetia war'

August 10 2008 at 6:23 PM
 
Israel has provided Georgia with military assistance amid an ongoing armed conflict in the breakaway region of South Ossetia.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=66203&sectionid=351020202
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 11:33
Originally posted by Roberts

How the hell is it even possible that OS separatist are still armed (even with heavy artillery pieces) after so many years with Russian "peacekeepers" in the region.

The Russian peacekeepers have done a really poor job in my opinion.

The Russians weren't there to keep the peace, but setting up the trap the Georgians walked straight into. Had the Russians cared about the civilians they would have stopped the rebel Ossetian attacks on civilian Georgians a long time ago, who at least until recently were still the majority in South Ossetia. On the contrary, the Russians have been arming the separatists in South Ossetia as well as in Abkhazia (which you all know were ethnically cleansed from Georgians). All the Russians care about is to make an example and strengthen their hold on the Caspian oil. As it were, the Georgians became tired of rebel attacks and Russian meddling in their internal affairs. I only hope NATO won't bother with this, and sacrifice the Georgians in favour of not escalating the mess. And then place troops in Balticum to prevent the Russians to play the same game with Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Aug-2008 at 11:38
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:04
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 
I only hope NATO won't bother with this, and sacrifice the Georgians in favour of not escalating the mess. And then place troops in Balticum to prevent the Russians to play the same game with Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania.
 
What I hope, is that Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania will not kill Russian citizens by hundreds as Georgians did, which according to your logic is possible. If I were you I would think better about your neighbours and EU partners.
.
Back to Top
Antioxos View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 26-Apr-2006
Location: Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 340 		  Quote Antioxos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:12

 
a map from th area and a very good analysis from New York Times
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/11/world/europe/11ticktock.html?pagewanted=1&fta=y

By antioxos at 2007-08-20
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:18
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

 
I only hope NATO won't bother with this, and sacrifice the Georgians in favour of not escalating the mess. And then place troops in Balticum to prevent the Russians to play the same game with Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania.
 
What I hope, is that Estonia, Latvia or Lithuania will not kill Russian citizens by hundreds as Georgians did, which according to your logic is possible. If I were you I would think better about your neighbours and EU partners.

Complete misinterpretation on your part, if that's what you think I wrote. The Abkhazians ethnically cleansed Abkhazia from Georgians, with Russian approval. Ossetian separatists, armed by Russia, has been attacking Georgian targets. If this starts to happen in Estonia etc, the Ests have all the right in the world to kick out the Russians. The Georgians are the ones who have been targets for ethnic cleansing, not the other way around. About the alleged massacres of Ossetian civilians, I will say nothing until the smoke clears. I don't trust the media of either side during the conflict.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:26
I don't think anyone is ethnically cleansing anyone.
Both Georgia and Russia are multi-ethnic multi-cultural states neither of whom have the historical precedent. This is the caucuses, not the balkans.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:32
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I don't think anyone is ethnically cleansing anyone.
Both Georgia and Russia are multi-ethnic multi-cultural states neither of whom have the historical precedent. This is the caucuses, not the balkans.


Nonetheless, that's exactly what the Abkhazians did in the 90s, when they killed 20,000 and expelled another 200,000 Georgians. There weren't any historical precedents of cleansings prior to the 20th century in Yugoslavia either, and that didn't stop them.

Edit: link: http://www.hrw.org/reports/pdfs/g/georgia/georgia953.pdf


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Aug-2008 at 12:34
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:40
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The Georgians are the ones who have been targets for ethnic cleansing, not the other way around.
 
No actually, the Georgians were ones to not recognize the independence of Abhazia and Osetia which were declared on the same reason as declaration of independence of Georgia itself. Ethnic cleansing was bipolar, Georgians were for sure not angels in those wars and only internal georgian civil war actually prevented them to cleanse those two republics 15 years ago. So, you completely misinterpret avzailable data yourself, which is obviously because of the bias toward Russia. This bias is not something surprising, given that brainwashing during Col-War happened not only in Eastern Block.  
 
About the alleged massacres of Ossetian civilians, I will say nothing until the smoke clears. I don't trust the media of either side during the conflict.
This was shown in English ITV1 yesterday for example.
.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 12:55
Originally posted by Anton

 
No actually, the Georgians were ones to not recognize the independence of Abhazia and Osetia which were declared on the same reason as declaration of independence of Georgia itself. Ethnic cleansing was bipolar, Georgians were for sure not angels in those wars and only internal georgian civil war actually prevented them to cleanse those two republics 15 years ago. So, you completely misinterpret avzailable data yourself, which is obviously because of the bias toward Russia. This bias is not something surprising, given that brainwashing during Col-War happened not only in Eastern Block. 

Why would they recognize their independence? The majority of the population of those provinces were Georgian. If I have a bias against Russia it's because of their constant tendency to invade small, neighbouring countries. I'm not "anti-Russian" or somesuch, if that's what you believe.

This was shown in English ITV1 yesterday for example.


I have yet to see anything convincing, though I'm not saying it's impossible.
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 13:00
Anton, do you agree that Russia used Osetines and Abhazians all this time like as a tools to influence state of Georgia?

For example, if there was pro-Russian dictator in Georgia like Aleksandr Lukashenko in Belarus, who would come with an offer to Russia like "I will give you full control of pipeline, but all you have to do is stay neutral, I have some rebellious minorities to suppress." What kind of answer will Russia give?
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 13:38
Yes I do agree with that. This however is not unique for Russia. USA behaves in a similar manner. But at least untill recently, Russia behaved more consistantly than Western countries, supporting both Serbian and Georgian territorial integrities.
.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 13:42
Originally posted by Anton

Yes I do agree with that. This however is not unique for Russia. USA behaves in a similar manner. But at least untill recently, Russia behaved more consistantly than Western countries, supporting both Serbian and Georgian territorial integrities.


Just to clarify to my post above: I do think the Georgians broke the cease fire and started the hostilities. However the Russians are overreacting, and it's pretty obvious that they are not fighting because of altruistic reasons. And yes, the West is bloody hypocrites, eg when it comes to Serbia.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 12-Aug-2008 at 13:43
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 13:44
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Why would they recognize their independence? The majority of the population of those provinces were Georgian. If I have a bias against Russia it's because of their constant tendency to invade small, neighbouring countries. I'm not "anti-Russian" or somesuch, if that's what you believe.
 
How would it be a majority if majority voted for independence? That does not make any sence. I do not believe that you are anti-Russian but you are biased as a consequence of cold war. Russia (not SU) so far didn't invade any which cannot be said for NATO block.
 
.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 13:54
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Why would they recognize their independence? The majority of the population of those provinces were Georgian. If I have a bias against Russia it's because of their constant tendency to invade small, neighbouring countries. I'm not "anti-Russian" or somesuch, if that's what you believe.
 
How would it be a majority if majority voted for independence? That does not make any sence. I do not believe that you are anti-Russian but you are biased as a consequence of cold war. Russia (not SU) so far didn't invade any which cannot be said for NATO block.
 

Which referendum are you refereing to? The one about preservation of the Soviet Union in which the resident Georgians didn't even take part in?
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.098 seconds.