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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russia's attack disproportionate
    Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 11:44

Make up your mind.  As far as I am concerned we have talked about both because you keep changing it.

No, I am not. Infact, problem is you cannot differentiate them. Firstly you say, Russia is right about this issue, Than you support this with real politics arguements.(Like ossetia have power ext.) You cannot have both. If you say, Russia is "right", You should support it with ethical arguments.

Ossetians with Russian passports are Russian citizens and Russia is obliged to protect them.  Georgians have killed thousands of civilians in their indiscriminate attacks on the Ossetian capital.  Russian attacks are not indiscriminate and they are attacking military targets only.  60 georgian civilians killed vs 2000 Ossetians dead and who knows how many injured.
It's a very complicated question. Since Ossetians actually were not Georgian citizens when they accepted Russian citizenship. They held the old Soviet citizenship. Then the war broke up because the Georgian nationalistic government wanted to kick them up from Georgia. From the legal perspective they never were complitely within the jursidiction of the Georgian goverment and didn't accept its authority.
 
Do not missunderstood me but even I am not genious, I am not also stupid too. I just dismiss this argument.
 
 If They are russian citizen, They should go russia. why are they trying to build a goverment at georgia? (By the way, So what If some turks become russian citizen? I should afraid from russian attack. I am not sure, If history ever show such weird justification for an attack.)
 
You are realy taking people too low.
 
And that, civilian deaths. In reality, We have not much informence about it. So spare me with bloody georgians and friendly russian  bullshit. We both have not much idea at what is happening there.. Russian or georgian newspapers or televisions are the last one I can trust. Lets see what is reality. It will take some time.
 
 
 
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 11:59
Originally posted by Zagros

Ossetians with Russian passports are Russian citizens and Russia is obliged to protect them.  Georgians have killed thousands of civilians in their indiscriminate attacks on the Ossetian capital.  Russian attacks are not indiscriminate and they are attacking military targets only.  60 georgian civilians killed vs 2000 Ossetians dead and who knows how many injured.

The Russians have been handing out passport to the left and right with the intention of getting a hold in and of the provinces.  Even though they use it as an excuse to invade a foreign country, they do not have the right to do so. What's next? Russia invades Belarussia, the Balkan states, Finland etc, just because some Russian was killed there? This tactic is not new: the Germans used it when invading and annexing Sudetenland and the rest of Czechoslovakia back in the 30s. Russia bullying its smaller neighbours isn't exactly a new phenomenon either.

I seriously doubt the the 2000 civilian casualties by the way. Too much bullshit from both sides to trust any numbers whatsoever. Hopefully it will be clearer after the war, but right now you can't really trust such reports.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 11-Aug-2008 at 12:00
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:01
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by Roberts


Interestingly what did Russia do to help Ossetinians while pro-russian Shevarnadze was in rule in Georgia.

They are Russian proxies, they have little choice. They occupy some Ingush land so not popular on that side (think Beslan) and have Georgians to their south. Their Russian citizenship is their protection.

Once upon a time the KLA was a terrorist organisation in the eyes of washington then it was a liberation force. No one here is gullible in thinking Russia is some savoiur, the Chechens-Inguish also have a right to indepedance.

But the Georgians are bullies to their minorties, so if you belong to a group that is being bulllied by them , then good riddance a bigger bully comes in and sorts them out. Who cares if its all about promoting themselves, not like NATO is any different. Its all about which power helps you out more in your locality.


I agree, but I am watching Russian TV on this war. Man, they really put CNN and Fox new on shame. Goebels would be impressed.Big%20smile

Try to impress me... Big%20smile
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:04
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Mortaza

Than russia can attack anyone with their own law.
Yes, it can if you jam Russian citizens with tanks and beat them do deaths with rifless butts. The things which Ossetian refugees are reporting about the Georgian atrocities.
 
It's not only Russia who protects its interests abroad. Turkey for example crossed the border to the foreign country many times to protect its citizens...

Yes. We will all believe Ossetian fugitives who've likely been given a good standing in Russia to get a anti-georgian statement. 
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:05
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Mortaza

I am not sure about that knowledge. (That knowledge is true, specially hospital, churches and mosques part, I agree with you. It is a war crime to aim these buildings.)  
 
Well. They show the images on the Russian TV. For some reasons CNN doesn't broadcast this.
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Anyway, My point is, You cannot make citizen of another country as your own citizen and than try to protect them..
 
 
It's a very complicated question. Since Ossetians actually were not Georgian citizens when they accepted Russian citizenship. They held the old Soviet citizenship. Then the war broke up because the Georgian nationalistic government wanted to kick them up from Georgia. From the legal perspective they never were complitely within the jursidiction of the Georgian goverment and didn't accept its authority.

The soviet citizenship can't last for 17 years. Plus, if the Soviet Union was disbanded, so should it's citizenship for it's of no worth. As well as I remember, I don't know that Russia claimed to be the official successor of USSR. 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:54
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by Zagros

Ossetians with Russian passports are Russian citizens and Russia is obliged to protect them.  Georgians have killed thousands of civilians in their indiscriminate attacks on the Ossetian capital.  Russian attacks are not indiscriminate and they are attacking military targets only.  60 georgian civilians killed vs 2000 Ossetians dead and who knows how many injured.

The Russians have been handing out passport to the left and right with the intention of getting a hold in and of the provinces.  Even though they use it as an excuse to invade a foreign country, they do not have the right to do so. What's next? Russia invades Belarussia, the Balkan states, Finland etc, just because some Russian was killed there? This tactic is not new: the Germans used it when invading and annexing Sudetenland and the rest of Czechoslovakia back in the 30s. Russia bullying its smaller neighbours isn't exactly a new phenomenon either.

I seriously doubt the the 2000 civilian casualties by the way. Too much bullshit from both sides to trust any numbers whatsoever. Hopefully it will be clearer after the war, but right now you can't really trust such reports.


The 30,000 refugees into Russia has been verified.  So I wouldn't be surprised. 

And it wasn't a simple case of Russians being killed, it is the matter of the Georgian Army killing Russians at the behest of the Georgian government, a slightly different situation.   They stormed Russian checkpoints and killed Russian soldiers.  So Russia should do nothing so that it is not accused of being a bully?   What sort of a message does that send?  You can kill our citizens and attack our forces and you can b certain that we care about our image in the west so much that we won't do anything?
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:56
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Mortaza

I am not sure about that knowledge. (That knowledge is true, specially hospital, churches and mosques part, I agree with you. It is a war crime to aim these buildings.)  
 
Well. They show the images on the Russian TV. For some reasons CNN doesn't broadcast this.
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Anyway, My point is, You cannot make citizen of another country as your own citizen and than try to protect them..
 
 
It's a very complicated question. Since Ossetians actually were not Georgian citizens when they accepted Russian citizenship. They held the old Soviet citizenship. Then the war broke up because the Georgian nationalistic government wanted to kick them up from Georgia. From the legal perspective they never were complitely within the jursidiction of the Georgian goverment and didn't accept its authority.

The soviet citizenship can't last for 17 years. Plus, if the Soviet Union was disbanded, so should it's citizenship for it's of no worth. As well as I remember, I don't know that Russia claimed to be the official successor of USSR. 



Russia IS the official successor of the USSR it is still bound by treaties signed in the USSR era so it is unequivocally the successor of the USSR.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 17:53
Originally posted by Mortaza

Do not missunderstood me but even I am not genious, I am not also stupid too. I just dismiss this argument.

 If They are russian citizen, They should go russia. why are they trying to build a goverment at georgia? (By the way, So what If some turks become russian citizen? I should afraid from russian attack. I am not sure, If history ever show such weird justification for an attack.)
 
You fail to understand that they were never Georgian citizens. They were declared independence from Georgia at the same time and using the same arguments as used by Georgians for declaration of their independence on Russia. Which for them menas that they create their state in South Ossetia not in Georgia. This is one thing. Second, the difference from Russian citizens in Turkey is that not 90% of Turks got this hypothetical Russian citizenship and intention to unite with Russia. Guess what will happen if 90% of Turkis would like to united with Russia? They will be united with Russia.
 
 
 
 
And that, civilian deaths. In reality, We have not much informence about it. So spare me with bloody georgians and friendly russian  bullshit. We both have not much idea at what is happening there.. Russian or georgian newspapers or televisions are the last one I can trust. Lets see what is reality. It will take some time.
Deaths of several Russian peace-keepers before her actual envolvement is legal enough reason for attacking Georgia in South-Ossetia. 1600 number might be signifficantly overestimated but as Sarmat mentioned "Grad" system is not something precise and it is impossible that it didn't lead to civilian deaths. Who are as it was many times mentioned before, Russian citizens. This is enough reason ti invade Georgia. Look, some others are using much less signifficant reason to invade countries:
 

Vietnam War (1961–1973) In 1955, communist North Vietnam invaded non-communist South Vietnam in an attempt to unify the country and impose communist rule. The United States joined the war on the side of South Vietnam in 1961, but withdrew combat troops in 1973. In 1975 North Vietnam succeeded in taking control of South Vietnam.

Dominican Republic (1965) President Lyndon Johnson sent marines and troops to quash a leftist uprising in the Dominican Republic, fearing the island nation would follow in the footsteps of Cuba and turn communist.

Grenada (1983) President Reagan invaded the Caribbean nation of Grenada to overthrow its socialist government, which had close ties with Cuba.

Panama (1989) President George H.W. Bush invaded Panama and overthrew Panamanian dictator and drug-smuggler Manuel Noriega.

Somalia (1993) A U.S.-led multinational force attempted to restore order to war-torn Somalia so that food could be delivered and distributed within the famine-stricken country.

 
So, hypothetical possibility, that there is some danger for a particular state is already a reason to invade another country. Smile Following that logic Russia should have invaded Georgia after their first declaration of their wish to join NATO.  
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 18:04
Originally posted by rider

The soviet citizenship can't last for 17 years. Plus, if the Soviet Union was disbanded, so should it's citizenship for it's of no worth. As well as I remember, I don't know that Russia claimed to be the official successor of USSR. 

 
Russia is the official successor of the USSR which was officially agreed with all the former USSR republics. In international law that was called "the principle of continuity."
 
This however, doesn't have any relation to the question discussed here, since the residents of Ossetia hadn't had Georgian citizenship and then they accepted Russian citizenship.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 18:05
Originally posted by rider

The soviet citizenship can't last for 17 years. Plus, if the Soviet Union was disbanded, so should it's citizenship for it's of no worth. As well as I remember, I don't know that Russia claimed to be the official successor of USSR. 

 
First of all, Russia is indeed official successor of USSR. She pays all USSR debts for instance. But let us look on it from another point of view. If I understand correctly your logic, Ossetians should have automatically became Georgian citizen, right? Following your logic, such people as "nepilsoni" or "aliens" in some modern EU states should be nonsence. How come they still exist? "I smell double standarts here" (C)
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 18:15
Originally posted by Mortaza

Do not missunderstood me but even I am not genious, I am not also stupid too. I just dismiss this argument.
 
 If They are russian citizen, They should go russia. why are they trying to build a goverment at georgia? (By the way, So what If some turks become russian citizen? I should afraid from russian attack. I am not sure, If history ever show such weird justification for an attack.)
 
You are realy taking people too low.
 
Besides killing Ossetians, they also killed Russian peacekeepers who were complitely legally in the region in accordance with all the international agreements. You know, according to international law it simply can be called the act of agression. Besides, according to those agreements in case one party violates the agreement and starts the agression, the party not involved in the fighting should support the victim of the aggression. Russian army had all the legal rights to intervene.
 
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

And that, civilian deaths. In reality, We have not much informence about it. So spare me with bloody georgians and friendly russian  bullshit. We both have not much idea at what is happening there.. Russian or georgian newspapers or televisions are the last one I can trust. Lets see what is reality. It will take some time.
 
Recently, high level of civilian casualties was confirmed by the Georgian minister of "reintegration" that warned Abkhazia about starting hostilities saying that "in recent fighting in Ossetia civilian casualties are too high which is a direct threat to the very existence of the small ethnicities (meaning Ossetians)."
 
 
 
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 18:58
My fault in that case; I remember reading from some place that Russia didn't declare herself the official successor. If she had, then the citizenship would be transferred. But doesn't citizenship come along with a passport? They are given only for a certain timeframe, the ESSR was for either 8 or 10 years, perhaps less, don't know exactly. Anyways, the timeframe isn't 17 years. So they should either have taken a Russian citizenship or a dual citizenship since they can't have renewed the USSR one in the years between. 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:05
Dear rider, having the Soviet citizenship wasn't an automatic prerequisite for gaining Russian citizenship.
 
Basically, after the SU collapsed people who hold only Soviet citizenship were actually people without citizenship or Apatrids.
 
Most of the Ossetians didn't actually have any citizenship (except the old Soviet one which became meaningless), including the Georgian one due to the war and hostile relations with Georgia. There was a Russian law (I think it's not effective anymore now) which allowed former Soviet citizens to apply for Russian citizenship via some facilitated procedures. So, Ossetians did that because they didn't want to take Georgian citizenship and didn't want to remain people without any citizenship at all.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:08
Actually, what puzzles me most, is that my radio reported that unlike Abkhazia, the Ossetians do not form the majority of the people in South Osseta. That there were more Georgians than Ossetians. Is this true? 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:12
I think you actually confused it. It was Georgian majority in Abkhazia (about 60%) not in Ossetia. After the war the Georgians were expelled from there
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:30
How were they expeled by the minority? Or it happened after Russia took part in the conflict?
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:40
Yes, despite being the minority Abkhazians expelled Georgian population. Russia didn't involve directly but it obviously facilitated the move to Abkhazia of numerous North Caucasus volunteers including many Chechens.
Shamil Basaev started his "career" in Abkhazia he even married an Abkhazian women there.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:14
Western media is so full of crap on this.  Many outlets present one side's claim as though it is fact.  For example, From watching the news you'd think that the Russian flag was flying in Gori.  But Russia has stated that its ground forces have not left S. Ossetia and US military sources have said there is no evidence that the Russians have advanced on Gori.

Furthermore - some deception is being spun out of Tblisi with regard to this proposed ceasefire.  They make it sound as though they are suing for peace and meeting a cold Russian shoulder.  The Russian deputy prime minister stated on C4 news that they had received no official approach to sign a ceasefire from Tblisi and in addition Abkhazia and S. Ossetia as recognised combatants in the conflict were to be the ones to sign it.  The Russian DPM made things a little clearer.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:30
Associated Press correspondents confirm that Georgian military forces continued to shell Tskhinvalli after the baphoon had "declared ceasefire."
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2008 at 00:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Associated Press correspondents confirm that Georgian military forces continued to shell Tskhinvalli after the baphoon had "declared ceasefire."

The same which Russians declined.

Anyway who do you think rules Russia - Putin or Medvedev?
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