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Russia's attack disproportionate
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Roberts View Drop Down
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russia's attack disproportionate
    Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 16:37
Originally posted by Anton

Actually every particular minority in Russia has its own schools in own languages, minor languages are recognized as local second state languages, they have own administration in some cases like in Tatarstan one cannot be a president if he does not know Tatar language. Moreover, huge finds are spend on preservation of local cultures and languages. This by the way is absent in many new EU members who are now complaining about brutal Russian imperialism.

You could call names, why didn't you do that? Wink If we are such monsters we wouldn't be accepted in EU.

Btw due to recent Russian law that all languages of Russia must be written in Cyrillic. This was specially aimed at Tatars who wanted to adopt Latin Alphabet just like many Turkic nations.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 16:43
Georgia has no right to claim Ossetia, Ossetia has never been a part of Georgia.  Georgia is the aggressor.  Ossetia is entitled to seek help from its allies.  Georgia claims Ossetia and has unsuccessfully tried to control it. 
 
 
Acording to you. In reality,Ossetia is a part of georgia now. Past is not such an important topic. At past georgia is ruled by iran, russia or ottomans so what? All of these countries still has no right over georgians.
 
And now, Ossetia is georgian soil..
 
I do no see any political or law related informence about independence of ossetia except ossetian claim.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 16:53
In REALITY it is NOT, on PAPER it is and what is on PAPER is NOT always REALITY.  The existence of an independent Ossetian nation with its own language and its own culture, its own government, its own president, its own army and without Georgian interference and control begs to differ with you and what's on PAPER.


Edited by Zagros - 10-Aug-2008 at 16:55
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Posts: 1138 		  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:00
Originally posted by Anton

 
Which means that Russian propaganda is still 50 years below. Look at BBC. Their propaganda is far more superior. No anti-Russian histeria, no lies, nothing! Yet, one picture of a Georgian crying over a dead body of another Georgian and no mention on thousands of similar cases in Tsinvali and voila! -- society knows who started the conflict and who is responsible for that! This, Roberts, is a real, modern, fine tuned propaganda machinery.

Of course I agree, but I don't think that BBC propaganda is superior to Russian one.

From Russiatoday.ru
http://russiatoday.com/news/news/28765

The president of South Ossetia claims mercenaries took part in Georgia’s offensive against the breakaway republic, according to Russia’s RIA news agency. Eduard Kokoity says Ukrainians, people from the Baltics as well as nationals from other countries were involved.

Yes, thats right the evil axis of Former Soviet Union send their mercenaries. Cool  This reminds of old Russian tales about female Baltic snipers in Chechniya, afaik they even made movie about it.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:04
Originally posted by Zagros

In REALITY it is NOT, on PAPER it is and what is on PAPER is NOT always REALITY.  The existence of an independent Ossetian nation with its own language and its own culture, its own government, its own president, its own army and without Georgian interference and control begs to differ with you and what's on PAPER.
 
To much opportunism? If georgia just destroy all ossetia, no problem? In reality, There would be no ossetia. will you support such realism too?
 
Yes. This is real politics. No ethic. So just do not say, russia is right. Just say, Russia is more powerful...
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:10
You said that Russia has no right (inferring morality) to interfere in "internal" Georgian affairs, which makes you a hypocrite in preaching what you just did.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:13

You mean? I am talking about rights not realities. You are the one who is talking about realities.

 

 
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Posts: 1023 		  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:25
Originally posted by Roberts

Originally posted by Anton

 
Which means that Russian propaganda is still 50 years below. Look at BBC. Their propaganda is far more superior. No anti-Russian histeria, no lies, nothing! Yet, one picture of a Georgian crying over a dead body of another Georgian and no mention on thousands of similar cases in Tsinvali and voila! -- society knows who started the conflict and who is responsible for that! This, Roberts, is a real, modern, fine tuned propaganda machinery.

Of course I agree, but I don't think that BBC propaganda is superior to Russian one.

 
Isn't the whole point of propaganda is to make people think that it is not a propaganda.  So if we start out with that they are all propagandas then the most successful one is the one appears to have the least amount of propaganda?  In that case the western media is the superior one.  They give you the better illusion of the objectivity.
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Zagros View Drop Down
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:35
Originally posted by Mortaza

You mean? I am talking about rights not realities. You are the one who is talking about realities.

Are you?  did you forget what you just said yourself?

Originally posted by Mortaza


 
Acording to you. In reality,Ossetia is a part of georgia now. Past is not such an important topic. At past georgia is ruled by iran, russia or ottomans so what? All of these countries still has no right over georgians.
 
And now, Ossetia is georgian soil..
 
I do no see any political or law related informence about independence of ossetia except ossetian claim.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:42

What I mean about in reality is , acording to law. Not acording to power(Your reality)
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 17:59
Who's law?  The Russians don't recognise Georgia's dominion over Ossetia and their laws matter more to them than yours.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:25
Originally posted by Roberts


You could call names, why didn't you do that? Wink If we are such monsters we wouldn't be accepted in EU.
 
Oh no, you are not monsters at all. But if you compare Swedes in Finland and Russians in Baltic countries, they enjoy completely different treatment.
As for Latin alphabet, I am sorry but Latin is not something very historical for Turkic languages. It was some kind of violation of human rights of Tatars if you wish but I am pretty sure not many of them complained.
.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:29
Who's law?  The Russians don't recognise Georgia's dominion over Ossetia and their laws matter more to them than yours.
 
Than russia can attack anyone with their own law.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:34
Originally posted by Mortaza

Who's law?  The Russians don't recognise Georgia's dominion over Ossetia and their laws matter more to them than yours.
 
Than russia can attack anyone with their own law.



Technically they can but they will use their common sense and act in their own interest, what would be the point in invading China for example?  Turkey used its own law to invade cyprus and enter sovereign Iraq.  America does the same.  International law is a formality and is only applied selectively to weaker nations.  So law is relative, reality is truth.


Edited by Zagros - 10-Aug-2008 at 18:35
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:38
Originally posted by Mortaza

Than russia can attack anyone with their own law.
Yes, it can if you jam Russian citizens with tanks and beat them do deaths with rifless butts. The things which Ossetian refugees are reporting about the Georgian atrocities.
 
It's not only Russia who protects its interests abroad. Turkey for example crossed the border to the foreign country many times to protect its citizens...


Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Aug-2008 at 18:39
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:43
Technically they can but they will use their common sense and act in their own interest, what would be the point in invading China for example?  Turkey used its own law to invade cyprus and enter sovereign Iraq.  America does the same.  International law is a formality and is only applied selectively to weaker nations.  So law is relative, reality is truth.
 
Than we are talking about not "right-wrong" issue but real politics.
 
It's not only Russia who protects its interests abroad. Turkey for example crossed the border to the foreign country many times to protect its citizens...
 
Unrelated. Turkey crossed border to attack terrorists and to protect their own people at Turkey. Otherwise, This would but totally absurd.
 
Turkey cannot enter germany because PKK killed Turkish people at germany.
 
Russia entered georgia for real politics and georgia entered ossetia for real politics. Noone of them is right but Personally I prefer weaker devil:)
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 18:50
Originally posted by Mortaza

 
Unrelated. Turkey crossed border to attack terrorists and to protect their own people at Turkey. Otherwise, This would but totally absurd.
 
 
How would you call militants who kill women and childred in hundreds and blow up hospitals, churches and mosques?
 
They exactly are terrorists. In two days they already killed much more Ossetian civilians than PKK in many years.
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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 19:06
I am not sure about that knowledge. (That knowledge is true, specially hospital, churches and mosques part, I agree with you. It is a war crime to aim these buildings.)
 
Anyway, My point is, You cannot make citizen of another country as your own citizen and than try to protect them..
 
 
 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 19:12
Than we are talking about not "right-wrong" issue but real politics.


Make up your mind.  As far as I am concerned we have talked about both because you keep changing it.

Ossetians with Russian passports are Russian citizens and Russia is obliged to protect them.  Georgians have killed thousands of civilians in their indiscriminate attacks on the Ossetian capital.  Russian attacks are not indiscriminate and they are attacking military targets only.  60 georgian civilians killed vs 2000 Ossetians dead and who knows how many injured.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 19:24
Originally posted by Mortaza

I am not sure about that knowledge. (That knowledge is true, specially hospital, churches and mosques part, I agree with you. It is a war crime to aim these buildings.)  
 
Well. They show the images on the Russian TV. For some reasons CNN doesn't broadcast this.
 
Originally posted by Mortaza

Anyway, My point is, You cannot make citizen of another country as your own citizen and than try to protect them..
 
 
It's a very complicated question. Since Ossetians actually were not Georgian citizens when they accepted Russian citizenship. They held the old Soviet citizenship. Then the war broke up because the Georgian nationalistic government wanted to kick them up from Georgia. From the legal perspective they never were complitely within the jursidiction of the Georgian goverment and didn't accept its authority.
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