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Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Was Thracian language very close to Slavic?
    Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 12:58
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Flipper, if you can provide me a clear picture and eventually a scholarly reading (by epigraphists) it would be great! That would clarify very much the forms of the names, and
besides, I personally know some philologists interested in Thracian onomastics.
 
I'm not sure I made my point clear. What I meant is that in the list the pairs of names mostly look like: Name1 <in nominative> Name2 <in genitive> and such names should be read as "Name1 of Name2". For instance "Beithys Pamphilou" should be "Beithys of Pamphilos". Kareventh(o)u can be "of Kareventhos". This rule would work for all pair of names except for row 2.
 
Dizas/Diza is a common Thracian name, also Dizo/Diso. I don't know about dhiza, but that dh sequence looks suspicios. Are you sure about its form?
 


Yes, Chibuldios, you were clear and you're right. Name1 <in nominative> Name2 <in genitive> it is. What I was trying to say is that in the time speaking (around 1rst cent AD) if the name/surname is Nike Christidou it doesn't necessarely mean that Nike had a father named Christos. In classical times Christidou would not pass from parent to child, so if the father had a patronym Pamphylou and a name Platon, the child would not be called X of Pamphylos but X of Platon. Later, the childs carried their fathers patronym (not in all cases ofcourse) so Pamphylou could be the patronym of the father or simply an ancestor many generations ago.

Diza is what i meant. Dh is suggested to render the Greek soft Δ delta and that's why i wrote Dhiza instead of Diza. Thanks for the clarification.

I found the inscription online and it is here: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11

It was recently discovered so i don't think there's a scholarly reading online. I have some info on a book in english published as late as Mars 2008 and it is the first publication made. If you want i can scan it. It has the original stele in a clear photo and the text clear with comments.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 12:59
Btw, is Hesychious dictionary on Thracian available somewhere online? 


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 13:14
Btw, i checked out "bolinthos" (a kind of bison) which was attested by Aristotle, according to whom that animal lived in the Messapian mountain, which separated the country of the Peonians from that of the Maideans.

The -nthos endings trace their roots in some early Anatolian language close to Luwian. As I said before, the Paionians are suspected to be Anatolians that moved to Thrace and that their language could be simply a mix of Thracian and Anatolian.

We know that bus in Greek means bull and could cognate to bo. We know also that lithos is a synonym to petra/las etc which means stone and could cognate with linthos. That could mean that linthos ment stone or mountain and bolinthos = mountain bull in some early anatolian language. That word may have passed through to Thrace with the Paionians. Just a theory ofcourse...What do you think?


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:54
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.


Phrygian resembles Thracian, Greek, and Armenian languages.
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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Thank you Darius.
 
Although some of these words seem close to Slavic, unfortunately most of them don't.
 
What is the source of this BTW?


Collective readings, as well as some light surfing around the web.  This is what I came up with, although some may be incorrect.
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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 14:58
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

I found this website, it is a Thracian glossary, though some of it seems to be incorrect.  Any thoughts?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 19:55
Originally posted by Flipper

Originally posted by Darius of Parsa


Thracian            English
germe                warm


Did you find germe between thracian words? Cause germe is "warm" in Phrygian as well.
Germe is "warm" in Persian too.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 20:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Germe is "warm" in Persian too.


The next question would be how warm is called in Armenian...I don't think i can avoid asking that. Smile


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 20:30
I answered the question myself...

In Armenian the word is "jerm". Shocked

Thracian          Phrygian          Greek         Armenian        Persian
germe              germe               thermos      jerm                germe

Also, the calling form (klitiki) of thermos in Greek is "therme".


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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2008 at 21:17
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Does anybody have a list of the Thracian words with established meaings?
 
Is that true that earth is zamol in Thracian?  Slavic is zemlia. Seems quite close.
The Modern Persian word for "earth" is Zamin, Middle Persian Zamik, Avestan Zam. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zam
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:27
The earth ethymology was linked to goddes Semela not only Zalmoxis. Note that it is not only related to word "earth" but also to word "soil" as it is in Slavonic languages. This was first proposed by Krechmer in 1935.
 
As far as I understand similarity between languages is studied not only by similarity of particular words (which is speculative -- in many cases we may only guess the meaning) but on the basis of phonetics. In this respect there are much more Thracian words, including names, toponyms, hydronyms etc. They are more than thousand. I recomend Ivan Duridanov's study about the place of Thracian languages in the Indoeuropean family. Look at http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html and references therein.
The most full list of all thracian words published so far was done by Detschew in "Die Thrakischen Sprachreste" (in German). He cites all sources or inscriptions (Greek and Latin mostly for obvious reassons) where every particular word/name/toponym was found.
Here is the link for downloading:
 
There are also plenty of much less studied Greko-Thracian and Latin-Thracian mixed inscriptions some of them even not published yet.
 
For those who can understand Bulgarian here is a book about Daco-Thraco-Baltic relationship:
By Kiril Vlahov (very meaningful name Wink) and another his book about thraco-slavonic relationship:
 


Edited by Anton - 30-Aug-2008 at 02:38
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:36
Sarmat, according to Maria Gimbutas there are archeological evidences of contacts between Slavs and Thracians. I mean not ones in Balkans but also much earlier on northern border between Thracian and Slavonic populations.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 02:40
Anton, what kind of files are those .djvu?



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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 12:58

Download somewhere djvu reader. It should be free.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:13
Originally posted by Flipper

I found the inscription online and it is here: http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=152429&bookid=152&region=4&subregion=11

It was recently discovered so i don't think there's a scholarly reading online. I have some info on a book in english published as late as Mars 2008 and it is the first publication made. If you want i can scan it. It has the original stele in a clear photo and the text clear with comments.
Thank you, I didn't know it was published on the Packhum site. If it is not too much trouble for you I'd appreciate the scans, otherwise I think this would be enough for the moment to take a better look at the names.
 
Btw, is Hesychious dictionary on Thracian available somewhere online?
It's not only on Thracian, it is a Greek lexicon but contains many weird words, including some of the languages neighbouring Greek but which were known also by some Greeks (like these several Thracian glosses). Here are some volumes scanned by Google Books (those in full view can be downloaded as PDF):
 
 
After you'll download the DJViewer you can find in Detschew's TSR those Thracian words which are listed by Hesychius and follow the reference.
 
We know that bus in Greek means bull and could cognate to bo. We know also that lithos is a synonym to petra/las etc which means stone and could cognate with linthos. That could mean that linthos ment stone or mountain and bolinthos = mountain bull in some early anatolian language. That word may have passed through to Thrace with the Paionians. Just a theory ofcourse...What do you think?
Your etymology seems plausible, the only thing which doesn't seem clear is whether *linthos is indeed a cognate for lithos.


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-Aug-2008 at 14:15
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:20
As far as I understand similarity between languages is studied not only by similarity of particular words (which is speculative -- in many cases we may only guess the meaning) but on the basis of phonetics. In this respect there are much more Thracian words, including names, toponyms, hydronyms etc. They are more than thousand. I recomend Ivan Duridanov's study about the place of Thracian languages in the Indoeuropean family. Look at http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_l/index.html and references therein.
The most full list of all thracian words published so far was done by Detschew in "Die Thrakischen Sprachreste" (in German). He cites all sources or inscriptions (Greek and Latin mostly for obvious reassons) where every particular word/name/toponym was found.
Here is the link for downloading:
 
There are also plenty of much less studied Greko-Thracian and Latin-Thracian mixed inscriptions some of them even not published yet.
 
For those who can understand Bulgarian here is a book about Daco-Thraco-Baltic relationship:
By Kiril Vlahov (very meaningful name Wink) and another his book about thraco-slavonic relationship:
 
Detschew is indeed an authority in Thracian language, Duridanov's work is also impressive but I find it a bit one-sided (e.g. he claims there are little similarities between Thracian and Greek and lists some but using Detschew and other Thracologists I could find many more similarities between Thracian and Greek: -paibes vs paidos , Salmuris vs halmyris, Arzos vs Argos, -zenis/-zanus vs -genes, germ- vs thermos etc.)
 
I browsed a bit through Vlahov's works and the latter seems quite speculative.


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-Aug-2008 at 14:21
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 14:24
Thank you Chilbudios!
I'm writting a report about some excavations soon and those steles are to be included. I'm gonna send you a high resulution image of that stele and some others.

As for linthos, it is the part of the word that makes it a theory. I was thinking about the city of Olynthos, which had mines where somekind of whitestone (not marble) was excavated back in the days. We can never know though.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:54
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I browsed a bit through Vlahov's works and the latter seems quite speculative.
I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 16:57
Originally posted by Anton

I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.

They are? I thought that group was highly hypothetical.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2008 at 17:05
I do not find it speculative. It is well known fact that Baltic and Slavic languages are from the same group, if you find similarities between Thracian and Baltic, one could expect similar similarities between Slavonic and Thracian as well.
Vlahov links various Thracian roots (bur-, -per, -poris) to Bulgarian words on the basis of some questionable similarities, often ignoring vowels or various other etymological considerations taken in account by other scholars. Detschew and Duridanov have a different approach on these words. So, between Detschew's well informed and balanced linguistical analysis and Vlahov's approach, I find the latter very speculative. Here Cyrus did the same with Iranic and Germanic Tongue
 
 
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