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Georgia:Russia has invaded and we are under attack

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Georgia:Russia has invaded and we are under attack
    Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 23:00
Sarmat
 
The only thing in this article (written by an Ossetian as his name suggests) is blatent attacks on georgians without any fact, just claiming that they are in a league on their own like hitler just tells you where he stands on the subject.
 
By the way, I am actually with Ossetia getting its independence, what make me go haywire is the total hypocracy of russia when it comes to kosovo, either you take one position and stick to it or don't take a position at all.
 
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 23:10
John Edwards having sex is more important than the Ossetia disaster according to CNN international (headline case Edwards having an affair). LOLConfused

Edited by Roberts - 08-Aug-2008 at 23:10
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 23:30
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by erkut

Now, who attacked first? Stern%20Smile

Today an Azerbaijanian fellow called me and said Georgian troops entered Osetia and killed some Russian soldiers first.
 
This is exactly what happened.


but the next question is, what are Russian soldiers doing in Georgia? i take it that 'Osetia' above refers to South Ossetia which is within the sovereignity of Georgia.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 23:50
Those were peacekeepers who legitemately were there with accordance with international agreements. It was indeed stupid to attack them. However, I'm afraid that the Georgian "Napolean" has complitely lost his mind.
Instead of sending his troops to Iraq and killing Ossetian civillians he should have better taken more care about his country's economy.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 23:57
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Sarmat
 
The only thing in this article (written by an Ossetian as his name suggests) is blatent attacks on georgians without any fact, just claiming that they are in a league on their own like hitler just tells you where he stands on the subject.
 
By the way, I am actually with Ossetia getting its independence, what make me go haywire is the total hypocracy of russia when it comes to kosovo, either you take one position and stick to it or don't take a position at all.
 
Al-Jassas
 
What hypocracy? I think I have repeated many times that Russia didn't recognize South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence although they have been asking for it since the early 1990th.
Russia intervened because its people are being killed there. May be Saakashivilli hope that Russia will be silently looking at all this mess? No more.
Concerning the origins of the conflict it actually started after the slogan of Gamsahurdia "Georgia for Georgians."  Georgian nationalists wanted to liquidate complitely Abkhazian and Ossetian autonomy this was the only reason of the conflicts. It actually were the Georgians who created such a strong desire of the Southern Ossetians for independence.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 00:04
Anyway the so called "Russian peacekeepers" are the former Soviet Union army (now Russia), which never left Georgia when it gained independence. Considering history I must say that Baltic states are quite lucky that Russian army left in 1994, otherwise we might still have them under honorably name "Russian peacekeepers".

The Georgians actually wanted to substitute Russian "peacekeepers" with "peacekeepers" from UN. Not surprisingly Russia was all against it, otherwise it wouldn't be able to control its business in Abhazia and South Ossetia.

In the end neither of sides really care for S. Ossetinian civilians - nor Russia, nor Georgia.
The real reason lies here.
Some months ago Georgia , Azerbaijan and Turkey signed treaty about international gas pipe between Azerbaijan and Turkey - it could break Russian position into Europe.


Edited by Roberts - 09-Aug-2008 at 00:04
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 00:13
I'm sorry but this is complitely false. Russia is saving and helping Southern Ossetian civilians now. Russia is treating wounded Ossetians and giving shelter to the refuges, while Georgian tanks are shooting them.
 
Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia are mandated by the UN, OBSE and the Council of Europe. So, your analysis was not really correct. In fact, the peacekeepers' corps consisted of equal proportion of Georgian, Ossetian and Georgian forces. So they were mandated by all the conflicting parties as well.
 
What you said about the pipeline might be true but you must be an idiot to start the war in the manner Saakashvilli did it.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 09-Aug-2008 at 00:51
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 00:30
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
What you said about the pipeline but you must be an idiot to start the war in the manner Saakashvilli did it.


I don't believe that Saakashvilli with Georgia are the only ones involved there. This seemed like well designed plan attacking in the eve of Olympic games and obvious it provoked Russian invasion. There are probably bigger forces behind the scenes playing this game, Saakashivilli might as well be just a pawn.

Lets wait for tomorrow when the large states and organizations will come up with their commentaries.


Edited by Roberts - 09-Aug-2008 at 00:31
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 00:49
Hmmm... Which states?
I don't think the US is really interested in this conflict.
 
I just saw CNN report on the situation. Another example of distortion. Confused
 
The broadcast just the Saakasvhili view. I especially "liked" when they showed him saying that "he wants only peace and to end the hostilities." These are the words of the man who order to start the war on the first day of the Olympics. Dead
 
It's simply disgusting. And why did he put the flag of the European flag behind his back. He wants Europeans to justify his crimes? Such a hypocracy.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 01:17

     Georgia most certainly set the spark that ignited this current situation, by briefly occupying parts of the South Ossetian capital in a pre-emptive strike. In my opinion Saakashvili was trying to crush Ossetia with a quick conquest of the S.O. capital, in order to start negotiations with Abkhazia in a position of strength. I think for Georgia, this conflict is more about Abkhazia. And at the same time and to a lesser extent, to try to impress NATO, and perhaps draw them closer to Georgia due to their anti-Russian stance.

     Obviously Russia was expecting something as their army responded almost on cue. There have been cold war tactics between the two sides for months now, and S.O. even evacuated local children over to the Russian side a few days ago after the Georgian military buildup across the border. But now, because of Georgia's miscalculation that Russia would not respond, Russia has an opportunity to not only prove that it calls the shots in the Caucasus, but more importantly to give the impression to NATO that it must rethink its strategy of expansion to surround Russia (I think pikeshot's post is accurate).
 
     Of course it doesn't hurt that the vast majority of Ossetians are Russian citizens, and even voted overwhelmingly in favor of a referendum in 2006 to be part of the Russian Federation. This is an excellent card in Russia's hand, alongside the Georgian pre-emptive strike.
 
 
     Just a side note: Ossetia was never part of the Georgian SSR, it was an autonomous region, and it declared its independence according to contemporary Soviet law, which says that an autonomous region in the USSR can declare independence from a succeeding republic (in this case, Georgia). Abkhazia is basically the same situation, as is Karabagh.
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

By the way, I am actually with Ossetia getting its independence, what make me go haywire is the total hypocracy of russia when it comes to kosovo, either you take one position and stick to it or don't take a position at all.
 
     Actually Russia's position is pretty consistent. They prefer that none of these entities are independent. I don't agree with this, but its consistent. They are supporting Ossetia not because of their independence movement, but because the vast majority of the population are Russian citizens. That is their main reason (geopolitics aside).
 
     This is different from the west's viewpoint, which believes that some entities deserve independence while others don't.
 
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

It's simply disgusting. And why did he put the flag of the European flag behind his back. He wants Europeans to justify his crimes? Such a hypocracy.
 
     Ever since he took office, he has made all his policy decisions on the assumption that the west will bend over backwards to help Georgia against Russia. You can see why the country is spiralling out of control.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 04:57
My view of this war is that it is both an internal conflict of Georgia/South Ossetia and also a proxy conflict with USA/NATO and Russia.

While it is probably true that Georgia was the aggressor in this case, Russia stepped up its relations with South Ossetia some months before.

That move was probably in response to Kosovo declaring independence.

USA, EU states, NATO and others backed the Kosovo move and also Georgia's entry into NATO. If Russia lets Georgia gains a victory here, it would be a victory for USA and NATO as well.

That can't be allowed from Russian point of view of course.






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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 05:02
^ good post by you and Pike.

The peacekeepers are a trip wire, and Georgia went in boots and all. If anything I would fall under the 'pro Chechen' camp in that region, but I think Georgia deserves what it gets. They are not the 'good guys' and i can assure you russian gas is more important to the EU than Tbilisi, winter is around the corner.

What is buccaneer Bush ( and other western lacky's)  going to say? respect national sovereignty and territorial integrity! they already have, but that was screwed right up in Kosovo. You reep what you sow.




Edited by Leonidas - 09-Aug-2008 at 05:14
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 05:10

Experts argue over Georgia-Ossetia conflict

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28676

South Ossetia: The War Began!
http://en.fondsk.ru/article.php?id=1530

The Goals Behind Moscow's Proxy Offensive In South Ossetia
http://jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373298

Russia is asking for trouble in Georgia

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/830edc3a-656

The two-faced, underhanded foreign policy of Georgia
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/08-08



Edited by Bankotsu - 09-Aug-2008 at 05:45
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 06:10
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 It's simply disgusting. And why did he put the flag of the European flag behind his back. He wants Europeans to justify his crimes? Such a hypocracy.


Probably as a propaganda move to show that Georgia and EU are together against Russia.

Some uninformed people might even think that Georgia is in EU.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 06:17
So far Russia has derailed the UN from making a decision on the war since it has a permanent seat on the security council.  Russia is showing its force big time in Georgia and I dont think Georgia will come out the same after this conflict.
 
 
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 06:24

Lack of UN reaction worsened Georgia-South Ossetia conflict - Russia

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28688

UN Security Council meets again over South Ossetia conflict
http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777

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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 07:56
It's a big mistake made by Salikashwili to attack Russian troops. Now Georgia will suffer a lot. He is a suicaider or what? Nobody will risk war with Russia now especially that it was georgians that made a first move from what I hear in Polish news ( which hardly can be accused to be pro russian ).
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 08:16
He is complitely crazy. That's a fact. The bad think is that the Georgian people now have to suffer because of this mad man. Unhappy
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 08:22
Originally posted by Bankotsu

Originally posted by Sarmat12

 It's simply disgusting. And why did he put the flag of the European flag behind his back. He wants Europeans to justify his crimes? Such a hypocracy.


Probably as a propaganda move to show that Georgia and EU are together against Russia.

Some uninformed people might even think that Georgia is in EU.
 
Does it mean that Saakashvilli propaganda is aimed at idiots? LOL
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2008 at 09:47
Why did Saakashvilli risk a Georgian-Russian war by invading South Ossetia?

This appears to be a risky move.

Did he for some unknown reason feel that Russian would not intervene?

Or he did receive prior USA/NATO secret backing?
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