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[article] Luther's Sola fide - was it all?

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: [article] Luther's Sola fide - was it all?
    Posted: 30-Jul-2008 at 01:39

This was an article that I actually wrote on a park bench whilst thinking about the question, and thankfully I had my laptop with me so I just decided to write it! Summer holidays can do things like that!

 

The statement that “the single and most important part of Luther’s teaching was his belief in salvation by faith alone” is largely correct. Luther’s concept of “sola fide” or “faith alone” dictated that good works were spiritually worthless without the good motivation to back them up. However, other secular concerns such as nationalism did find their way into Luther’s teachings because of the political climate of the time. The catholic church was a vast institution and naturally since its’ foundation, the texts that it relied upon such as the official Latin Vulgate edition of the bible contained various scribal errors that humanists of the period such as Desidesmus Erasmus, Johannes Von Richelieu and Melancanthon were keen to highlight. However, not all of the errors found by these humanists and later, Luther, in the official vulgate version of the bible were intrinsically linked to Luther’s later theory of “sola fide” or “faith alone” . However, this investigation brought with it the wrath of the pope, who was keen to exploit the traditional, admittedly pseudo-Christian beliefs and practices for his own nepotism and financial means – for example, the belief in the same of indulgences.

 

The indulgences mission sanctioned by Pope Leo X in 1517 was one of the initial reasons that Luther wrote his “95 theses”, and was directed against the belief that many German peasants had that if they brought pieces of paper signed by the pope, they or the souls of their relatives would instantly be released from purgatory and straight into heaven. These indulgences were, for the short and painful life of the German peasantry, a blessing, yet Luther saw many be “led to sin” because they were convinced that when they had purchased the indulgence, they were guaranteed a place in heaven. By this stage, Luther’s ideas were clearly distinctive, but he had not come to the conclusion of “sola fide” or “faith alone” at this point in any considerable sense. Much of Luther’s preoccupation was the academic issue of the pope ignoring what Luther thought were just local abuses, and as he illustrated in a letter to Archbishop Albert of Brandenburg “if the pope knew about these abuses in Germany…”. Even when the concept of “faith alone” was characterized by Luther’s three 1520 publications – “address to the Christian nobility”, “on the liberty of the Christian man” and “On the Babylonian captivity of the church”, Luther’s new form of Christian humanism was mainly noticed for it’s rejection of indulgences and therefore the ready cash that Germany – the “Milk cow of the Vatican” – used to readily provide to the church. Arguably, it was indulgences that characterized Lutheranism, and is one of the key reasons why German leaders were keen to use it and manipulate it for their own means, as well as it’s wide scale rejection of the structure of the Catholic church itself.

 

Lutheranism rejected the power and hierarchy of the Catholic church mainly through Luther’s concept of “sola fide” or “faith alone”. Luther rejected the clergy because he thought that there was no need for people to need to use intermediaries in their relationship with god, which was supposedly personal. For this reason, Lutheranism threatened the structure of the Catholic church that gave it the immense amount of power that it had enjoyed for centuries. The concept of a “priesthood of all believers”  furthermore meant that the “lord temporal” would technically have much more power than a “lord spiritual”, undermining the power of Catholic high ranking Clergy members in Holy Roman states. These beliefs all stemmed from the principle of “sola fide” – that god was a personal matter. For this reason also, when Frederick the wise died in 1525, his successor to the state of Saxony – John the steadfast – initiated a wide spread campaign of dissolving monasteries in the manner that Cromwell would perform in the 1530s in England. Such theological principles gave “lords temporal” an excuse on he pretext of religion to opportunistically seize land and resources. For example, the declining class of the imperial knights, lead by the humanist knights Ulrich Von Hutten and Franz Von Sickingen, invaded the lands of the immensely powerful bishops of Trier, Mainz and Cologne to gain land. Some, such as the famous “Zwickau Prophets” group of 1520 of whom Thomas Müntzer was a member, used Lutheranism as an excuse to instate wide scale social uprising. The so called “Munster experiment” throughout the 1520s turned Luther’s home town – Wittenberg – into chaos and anarchy, as people used the opportunity to rob houses and churches. Such actions culminated in the 1525 peasant’s war, which Luther attacked in his 1525 “Against the robbing and murdering hordes of peasants”. The concept of “sola fide” had caused a chain reaction which was interpreted by some as not only removing much of the theological need for a hierarchical church, but also the hierarchy of society in general. In a rather contradictory manner, Luther’s teachings condemned some of the almost inevitable outcomes of the concept of “sola fide” and maintained that it was the express right of the “lord temporal” to be the ruler over not only the church in his state, but also to keep an iron grip on his people by a god-given right. It is therefore of no surprise that immensely powerful leaders such as Albrecht Hohenzollern - Duke of Prussia and Frederick the wise – Elector of Saxony, converted to Lutheranism in 1525 and 1526 respectively. Moreover, the later military leagues of the protestant princes (league of Torgau 1526, league of Schmalkalden 1531) actually enforced Lutheranism on some states – for example, in 1534 Philip of Hesse reinstated the odious Ulrich Von Württemberg to his state after being ousted in a coup. It was, again “sola fide” that in many cases gave these advantages to the German princes. In some cases, however, “sola fide” was not all that characterized Luther’s theology.

 

In the Marburg Colloquy in the 1540s, where Luther and Zwingli debated, the main emphasis of the debate was not “sola fide”, which both essentially agreed upon, but the issue of transubstantiation. Zwingli and other humanist Christian movements were much more radical in that they actually rejected the entire principle, maintaining that it was purely symbolic. Luther, however, rejected transubstantiation, but instead advocated “consubstantiation”, which maintained that no miracle had actually taken place, but the “essence” of Christ was in ordinary wine and ordinary bread. Moreover, the seven sacraments of Christianity – baptism, confirmation, marriage, confession, last unction and rites and masses for the dead were supposedly all based on biblical sources. However, in 1519 when Cardinal Cajetan confronted Luther and stated that it was only the pope’s right to interpret the texts, Luther began to read deeper into them. He researched into biblical texts in the official Vulgate Latin as well as new translations in Hebrew and Greek, and maintained that there were only actually two sacraments that had any basis for worship. Therefore, much of the theological basis of Lutheranism also came from a rejection of instated Catholic rituals that were considered almost pseudo-pagan by Luther, who relied only on the scriptures – “sola scriptura” – and rejected the idea that the pope was a direct representative of Christ and god on earth. Luther also put great emphasis on the rejection of the cult of saints, which he believed constituted as idolatry and put emphasis away from the worship of Christ. For this reason, Lutheran churches were almost all sparsely decorated, so that the worshippers did not feel that they were physically directing their energies towards anything in particular. For the same reason, Luther rejected the principles of relics and pilgrimages to saints’ graves, and even managed to convince the Elector of Saxony – Frederick the wise – to disassemble his relic collection by 1523. These rejections of such principles are on the whole not surprising for the period, and it was often stated that there were “enough pieces of the true cross to plant forests, enough of the virgin’s milk to float ships”. Many of the princes who Luther associated with were humanists for a long time before they had any connection with Luther (in 1520 Ulrich Von Hutten wrote a pamphlet defending the radical biblical scholar Johannes Von Richelieu), and rejection of idols was nothing new – Erasmus mocked both the cult of saints and monastic life in his satire “In praise of folly”. Luther, like Erasmus, rejected monastic life because he felt that this was not necessary for one to achieve salvation and moreover, because nobody could pray for someone, and a person had to pray for themselves. Luther had lived a life as an Augustinian monk for years during his personal spiritual crisis, which arose from feelings that was never being a good enough Christian. Moreover, it can be said that Lutheranism was later not recognized by the emphasis on “sola fide” or “faith alone”, because in 1526, at the first diet of Speyer, Melancanthon and the papal representative cardinal Conditeri actually agreed that both faith and good works were both intrinsic to salvation, although the pope rejected this large step towards reconciliation between the two sides.

 

In conclusion, despite many of the other theological considerations of Luther, it would appear that “sola fide” was his main point of Lutheranism, and that it was perhaps more intrinsic than any other point. His rejection of monastic life, the cult of the saints, indulgences and relics can be seen (even though indulgences was before the concept of “sola fide” was fully instated in the 1520 “on the liberty of the Christian man”) to rely on the basis that all of these intermediaries were unnecessary if one had true belief and faith in god. Moreover, many of the political advantages that came from Lutheranism were fundamentally based on Luther’s rejection of the church, which in turn came from, as mentioned above, his belief that no intermediaries were needed – faith alone. Issues such as that of “consubstantiation” and Zwingli’s rejection of Catholic “transubstantiation” represent a very small part of Luther’s theological beliefs, and the texts of 1520 do not place much emphasis upon them. However, the political decrees such as the Augsburg confession of 1530 and the Schmalkaldic articles at the 1545 council of Trent all place much emphasis upon these other issues. Therefore, “sola fide” was in any case one of the most if not the most distinctive belief behind the Lutheran theology.

 

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jul-2008 at 11:51
Hmmh. I wish you had more of these 'outbreaks'. So could Alex and Sam... We'd have no problem of fresh content... Hehe... 
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 11:13
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

The statement that “the single and most important part of Luther’s teaching was his belief in salvation by faith alone” is largely correct.

Here and further down it's somewhat misleading to leave it at that, because it implies - in modern English - that faith alone was enough to guarantee salvation. This is untrue. There were, according to Luther, five 'solas' necessary to salvation: sola Fide—sola Gratia—solo Christo—sola Scriptura—soli Deo gloria . The point of the 'sola' here is simply that good works are not necessary to salvation, not that 'faith is all you need' as many current Christian denominations would say. That salvation would be achievable simply by faith, without, e.g., grace, would be untenable, even I think in Islam.
...
However, this investigation brought with it the wrath of the pope, who was keen to exploit the traditional, admittedly pseudo-Christian beliefs and practices for his own nepotism and financial means – for example, the belief in the sale of indulgences.
That's a biassed statement if I ever heard one. 'Admittedly pseudo-Christian?' Admitted by whom?

 

Lutheranism rejected the power and hierarchy of the Catholic church mainly through Luther’s concept of “sola fide” or “faith alone”. Luther rejected the clergy because he thought that there was no need for people to need to use intermediaries in their relationship with god, which was supposedly personal.

But the Lutheran churches were and still are episcopal. In fact when at one time there was a suggestion that the Nordic Lutherans join with the Church of England, it fell through because the Lutherans thought the CoE too protestant for them, npt too catholic.
 
For this reason, Lutheranism threatened the structure of the Catholic church that gave it the immense amount of power that it had enjoyed for centuries. The concept of a “priesthood of all believers”  furthermore meant that the “lord temporal” would technically have much more power than a “lord spiritual”, undermining the power of Catholic high ranking Clergy members in Holy Roman states. These beliefs all stemmed from the principle of “sola fide” – that god was a personal matter.
How does sola fide have anything to do with God being personal? Luther did not preach that anyone could define God the way he wanted.
 For this reason also, when Frederick the wise died in 1525, his successor to the state of Saxony – John the steadfast – initiated a wide spread campaign of dissolving monasteries in the manner that Cromwell would perform in the 1530s in England. Such theological principles gave “lords temporal” an excuse on he pretext of religion to opportunistically seize land and resources. For example, the declining class of the imperial knights, lead by the humanist knights Ulrich Von Hutten and Franz Von Sickingen, invaded the lands of the immensely powerful bishops of Trier, Mainz and Cologne to gain land. Some, such as the famous “Zwickau Prophets” group of 1520 of whom Thomas Müntzer was a member, used Lutheranism as an excuse to instate wide scale social uprising. The so called “Munster experiment” throughout the 1520s turned Luther’s home town – Wittenberg – into chaos and anarchy, as people used the opportunity to rob houses and churches. Such actions culminated in the 1525 peasant’s war, which Luther attacked in his 1525 “Against the robbing and murdering hordes of peasants”. The concept of “sola fide” had caused a chain reaction which was interpreted by some as not only removing much of the theological need for a hierarchical church, but also the hierarchy of society in general. In a rather contradictory manner, Luther’s teachings condemned some of the almost inevitable outcomes of the concept of “sola fide” and maintained that it was the express right of the “lord temporal” to be the ruler over not only the church in his state, but also to keep an iron grip on his people by a god-given right. It is therefore of no surprise that immensely powerful leaders such as Albrecht Hohenzollern - Duke of Prussia and Frederick the wise – Elector of Saxony, converted to Lutheranism in 1525 and 1526 respectively. Moreover, the later military leagues of the protestant princes (league of Torgau 1526, league of Schmalkalden 1531) actually enforced Lutheranism on some states – for example, in 1534 Philip of Hesse reinstated the odious Ulrich Von Württemberg to his state after being ousted in a coup. It was, again “sola fide” that in many cases gave these advantages to the German princes. In some cases, however, “sola fide” was not all that characterized Luther’s theology.
Much of that is true but has nothing to do with sola fide.

In the Marburg Colloquy in the 1540s, where Luther and Zwingli debated, the main emphasis of the debate was not “sola fide”, which both essentially agreed upon, but the issue of transubstantiation. Zwingli and other humanist Christian movements were much more radical in that they actually rejected the entire principle, maintaining that it was purely symbolic. Luther, however, rejected transubstantiation, but instead advocated “consubstantiation”, which maintained that no miracle had actually taken place, but the “essence” of Christ was in ordinary wine and ordinary bread.

Wikipedia has " Lutherans believe that Jesus' actual body and blood are present in, with and under the bread and the wine. This belief is called Real Presence or Sacramental Union and is different from consubstantiation and transubstantiation ."
 
 
I don't quarrel with the history here, but I think you are putting far too much emphasis on sola fide. At a theological level, the break with Rome was minimal, almost as with the Church of England. What is the heart of the matter is the rejection of the authority of the Pope, and its replacement by the authorty of the secular monarch.
 
The break between Lutherans and Anglicans on the one hand and the Calvinists on the other was much more serious from a religious point of view. In fact even today Lutherans, Episcopalians and Roman Catholics still tend to line up on the same side when it comes to issues like evolution and creationism. 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 11:43
I'm particuarly focusing on Luther's "Sola fide" and if it was actually that which defined his religious philosophy - I'm not really speaking in that much detail about other forms of christianity
 
admittedly pseudo-Christian
 
Fair point - I did write this in a rush but then again, many Catholic beliefs do not come from the scriptures whatsoever - the term "Christian" logically means following the teachings of Christ - therefore, logically, practices which do not come from the scriptures cannot be considered fully Christian. Moreover, I'm not being bias as I'm neither a protestant nor a catholic, and live in a country filled with a great many of both denominations. I'm a pan-deist/loose Ashkenazi Jew, therefore my observations are not based on any latent feelings I may have for or against either form of christianity.
 
...And the CofE to protestant
 
I'm not sure what you meant by this - the CofE of Luther's age was fundamentally a catholic institution which still endorsed key tenants such as transubstantiation, monastic vows and a complex clergical hierarchical system. Even after 1549 in Northumberland's regency of Edward, when the second "Edwardian book of common prayer" was enforced, and each church made to have a copy of Erasmus' "paraphrases" and Cranmer's "Homilies", there were still some strong Catholic elements at play - Bishop Hooper, for example - a firebrand protestant - who would not be ordained in typically CofE garments, but wished to be ordained in austre Lutheran ones. Obviously by the time of Northumberland, the CofE is admittedly Zwinglian and to all intents and purposes protestant, but even under Elizabeth, Transubstantiation was still upheald, and the 39 articles did essentially confirm the key tenents of the original faith. Comparing Luther's church to the CofE is itself a little premature as Luther's ideas had been cemented by around 1525 after the three key tracts were published in 1520, whereas it would take at least until 1536 with the acts of supression of annates, "vallor excclesiasticus" and "stasis collectanea copossia" until Henry VIII's church was a proper instated organisation, and a few years later, when the treaties of Toledo and Nice were signed in 1538 and 1540, Henry would execute Cromwell and instate the 6 articles. Obviously this a long-running and furious debate, and it depends whether you prefer A.G. Dickens. J.J. Scarisbrooke, Christopher Haigh or J.A. Froude, but at the end of the day, all of them generally agree that Henry VIII and his church were doctrinally essentially catholic in the begining.
 
The break between Lutherans and Anglicans on the one hand and the Calvinists on the other was much more serious from a religious point of view
 
Admittedly - Luther could never bring himself to deny transubstantiation and instead developed the rather ambigious principle of "consubstatiation" and had furious debates with Zwingli in the 1540s Marburg Colloquies. However, we are speaking about classical "Lutheranism", meaning when the church was not yet experiencing the counter reformation and the kind of criticisms that Luther were making were clearly against the doctrine of the church of those under Leo X, Alexander VI, Adrian IV, Clement VII etc. I do take your point about this issue - even in the 1531 diet of Regensburg, when Melancanthon and cardinal Conditerri came to an agreement about both faith and good works being important, many other protestant divisions such as anabaptists, Zwingilians etc would not accept it, and Luther himself was sceptical. Moreover, Melanchanton was himself a humanist and therefore a clear distinction needs to be made between his brand of Christianity and Luther's dogma. I would seriously doubt initially that the breach between Luther and the papacy was more serious than his arguments against the Anglican church. Many protestants did under Mary flee and import a more Calvinist brand of Christianity back to England under Elizabeth, and proto-Lutherans such as Wycliffe and the Lollards were clearly active among the middle classes from early periods (Henry VIII rather ironically even endorsed Tyndales' 1526 venacular English bible). However, don't forget that Luther's "Breach" as you put it between his newly forming church and that of Henry VIII's based mainly due to his disgust at Henry VIII himself - he believed that Henry VIII's marriage was immoral from a biblical perspective purely, whereas Clement VII mainly disagreed because he did not want to undermine papal infalability and also because, simply Charles V held him almost as a prisoner after the 1527 sack of Rome. However, don't forget that Henry VIII would not sign the 1530 Augsburg Confession, which does, as you say, insinuate a breach between him and the Lutherans, but right from this period to the 30 years war in the 18th century, it would be folly to suggest that Luther's breach with the pre-counter reformation church was less than that of his minimal breach with Henry VIII's - he had "bigger fish" both theologically and secularly to fry.
 
Much of that is true but has nothing to do with sola fide.
 
Much of the attraction of Luther's theology was politcally based, as it allowed various disparite groups within the Holy Roman empire to rebel and rise up against the imperial authority (or authority in general in some cases). I believe that the examples I've given above have everything to do with "Sola Fide" because I am also concentrating on the political implications of this aspect of Sola fide as well as theological. Much of the political attraction of Lutheranism came from what it would entail due to it's theological rejection of Catholicism in many respects - therefore the effects of one of it's undisputably key principles cannot be left unnoticed.
 
But the Lutheran churches were and still are episcopal. In fact when at one time there was a suggestion that the Nordic Lutherans join with the Church of England, it fell through because the Lutherans thought the CoE too protestant for them, npt too catholic.
 
Point taken, but you can't deny that Catholic hierarchy is far more ritual and extensive than that of the Lutheran and other protestant churches - it's inevitable with a church that has lasted roughly from around 1054 and covered a large chunk of Europe.
 
...Also, I appreciate your advice, but take into account I did write this on the absolute spur of the moment very quickly - so it's not exactly meticulously revised. I think it's okay though


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 31-Jul-2008 at 12:18
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 15:17
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

I'm particuarly focusing on Luther's "Sola fide" and if it was actually that which defined his religious philosophy - I'm not really speaking in that much detail about other forms of christianity
My initial point was that simply using the phrase 'sola fide' and 'by faith alone' is misleading because it implies that Luther preached that salvation could be achieved simply through believing. That's such a common viewpoint nowadays that it might easily be taken that way. In fact Luther didn't preach salvation through faith all by itself, and no opponent would have any trouble tearing him apart if he did.
 
You have to take the five 'solas' together, and explain that it is the combination of the five that lead to salvation: Luther's point was that there was no sixth element - there was no requirement to do good works. In this he was breaking with more than just Roman Catholic tradition, but with the inherent feeling in most people in any society or group that one should be rewarded for what one does. That's a common point made in theological discussion of the issue by all side.
 
This is from a somewhat biassed Smile Reformed Church source, for instance:
 And (note again!) they were equally well aware that the gospel of the five "onlies" would always be contrary to natural human thinking, upsetting to natural human pride, and an object of hostility to Satan, so that destructive interpretations of justification by faith in terms of justification by works (as by the Judaizers of Paul's day, and the Pelagians of Augustine's, and the Church of Rome both before and after the Reformation, and the Arminians within the Reformed fold, and Bishop Bull among later Anglicans) were only to be expected.
...
For justification by works is, in truth, the natural religion of mankind, and has been since the Fall, so that, as Robert Traill, the Scottish Puritan, wrote in 1692, "all the ignorant people that know nothing of either law or gospel," "all proud secure sinners," "all formalists," and "all the zealous devout people secure sinners, in a natural religion," line up together as "utter enemies to the gospel."
 
In fact one could argue that more significance lay in sola scriptura, because that is the maxim that leads to rejection of the Roman claim to continuing revelation through the Pope and the hierarchy. There hasn't been any great trouble seeking reconciliation on the sola fide front, but sola scriptura is the main stumbling block and distinction between the two sides of the schism.
 
 
admittedly pseudo-Christian
 
Fair point - I did write this in a rush but then again, many Catholic beliefs do not come from the scriptures whatsoever - the term "Christian" logically means following the teachings of Christ - therefore, logically, practices which do not come from the scriptures cannot be considered fully Christian.
That itself is a biassed statement. Most of the world's Christians in fact accept the doctrine of continuing revelation.
 
Qhat you're stating there is the sola scriptura position, which I've been pointing out is the important difference in the Lutheran position. If you simply accept that only something coming from the scriptures can be "fully Christian" then it's no wonder you don't see the importance of it to the Reformation.
Moreover, I'm not being bias as I'm neither a protestant nor a catholic, and live in a country filled with a great many of both denominations. I'm a pan-deist/loose Ashkenazi Jew, therefore my observations are not based on any latent feelings I may have for or against either form of christianity.
I didn't mean to imply you were inherently or personally biassed, just that you were presenting an extremely biassed assertion as if it was factual.
...And the CofE to protestant
 
I'm not sure what you meant by this -
wikipedia
In the 18th century, there was some ecumenical interest between the Church of Sweden and the Church of England. John Robinson, Bishop of London, even fostered a plan for the union of the English and Swedish churches in 1718, supported by Count Gyllenberg, Swedish Ambassador to London. The plan fell through because of the opposition of most Swedish bishops, although Svedberg of Skara and Gezelius, Bishop of Turku (Finland) were in favour. The reason for the opposition was that the Church of England was too Calvinist for them
I accept before I checked I said 'protestant' instead of 'Calvinist' but it seems reasonable to equate 'too Calvinist' with 'too Protestant' since the Calvinists are generally seen as more extreme than other Protestants.
 the CofE of Luther's age was fundamentally a catholic institution which still endorsed key tenants such as transubstantiation, monastic vows and a complex clergical hierarchical system.
So was the Lutheran Church.
 
 
II. The Lutheran Church is a liturgical church because it is a catholic church. The Lutheran Reformers of the sixteenth century were not sectarian innovators who set out to create a new church, but they acknowledged, and rejoiced in, their continuity with the church of the apostles and ancient Christian Fathers. They recognized that many of the centuries-old liturgical customs which they had inherited were both useful and beneficial, and they saw no reason to discard them.
...
At Closter-Lüne in 1608 the minister wore a garment of yellow gauze, and over it a chasuble on which was worked in needlework a “Passion.” The inmates and abbesses, like Dorothea von Medine, were seen in the costume of the Benedictines. The “Lutheran monks” of Laccuna until 1631 wore the white gown and black scapular of the Cistercian order. Still later they sang the Latin Hours. The beneficiaries of the Augustinian Stift at Tübingen wore the black cowl until 1750.
 
 
 
 Even after 1549 in Northumberland's regency of Edward, when the second "Edwardian book of common prayer" was enforced, and each church made to have a copy of Erasmus' "paraphrases" and Cranmer's "Homilies", there were still some strong Catholic elements at play - Bishop Hooper, for example - a firebrand protestant - who would not be ordained in typically CofE garments, but wished to be ordained in austre Lutheran ones. Obviously by the time of Northumberland, the CofE is admittedly Zwinglian and to all intents and purposes protestant, but even under Elizabeth, Transubstantiation was still upheald, and the 39 articles did essentially confirm the key tenents of the original faith. Comparing Luther's church to the CofE is itself a little premature as Luther's ideas had been cemented by around 1525 after the three key tracts were published in 1520, whereas it would take at least until 1536 with the acts of supression of annates, "vallor excclesiasticus" and "stasis collectanea copossia" until Henry VIII's church was a proper instated organisation, and a few years later, when the treaties of Toledo and Nice were signed in 1538 and 1540, Henry would execute Cromwell and instate the 6 articles. Obviously this a long-running and furious debate, and it depends whether you prefer A.G. Dickens. J.J. Scarisbrooke, Christopher Haigh or J.A. Froude, but at the end of the day, all of them generally agree that Henry VIII and his church were doctrinally essentially catholic in the begining.
Couldn't agree more. It was catholic, is catholic, and apart from a short period in the 16th century remained catholic. Unless you call the Church under the Republic the 'Church of England' which would be pretty heterodox for both camps, and anyway would only add a short period in the 17th century.
 
What both Lutherans and Anglicans did was reject the authority of the Pope, and substitute their own hierarchy for the Roman one. Neither abolished hierachies altogether and both would claim to be in the apostolic succession.
 
The break between Lutherans and Anglicans on the one hand and the Calvinists on the other was much more serious from a religious point of view
 
Admittedly - Luther could never bring himself to deny transubstantiation and instead developed the rather ambigious principle of "consubstatiation" and had furious debates with Zwingli in the 1540s Marburg Colloquies. However, we are speaking about classical "Lutheranism", meaning when the church was not yet experiencing the counter reformation and the kind of criticisms that Luther were making were clearly against the doctrine of the church of those under Leo X, Alexander VI, Adrian IV, Clement VII etc.
Well, you had broadened it to cover the period of the religious wars, which takes one up to the Council of Trent.
 
I do take your point about this issue - even in the 1531 diet of Regensburg, when Melancanthon and cardinal Conditerri came to an agreement about both faith and good works being important, many other protestant divisions such as anabaptists, Zwingilians etc would not accept it, and Luther himself was sceptical. Moreover, Melanchanton was himself a humanist and therefore a clear distinction needs to be made between his brand of Christianity and Luther's dogma. I would seriously doubt initially that the breach between Luther and the papacy was more serious than his arguments against the Anglican church. Many protestants did under Mary flee and import a more Calvinist brand of Christianity back to England under Elizabeth, and proto-Lutherans such as Wycliffe and the Lollards were clearly active among the middle classes from early periods (Henry VIII rather ironically even endorsed Tyndales' 1526 venacular English bible). However, don't forget that Luther's "Breach" as you put it between his newly forming church and that of Henry VIII's based mainly due to his disgust at Henry VIII himself
I wrote 'break'. You wrote 'breach'. Smile
 
I also didn't make myself clear: I was talking about the break between the (Anglicans and Lutherans) both on one side, and the more extreme Protestants on the other side, not about any difference between the CofE on one side and the Lutherans on the other. I don't think there ever was any serious break/breach between them, except for that short period when the CofE flirted with Puritanism. And despite its press, Puritanism was never a serious movement in England: even Cromwell was driven to get rid of it after a few years of growing unpopularity.
 - he believed that Henry VIII's marriage was immoral from a biblical perspective purely, whereas Clement VII mainly disagreed because he did not want to undermine papal infalability and also because, simply Charles V held him almost as a prisoner after the 1527 sack of Rome. However, don't forget that Henry VIII would not sign the 1530 Augsburg Confession, which does, as you say, insinuate a breach between him and the Lutherans,
Again I'm not sure how you got the idea I mentioned a breach between the CofE and the Lutherans. In 1530 of course Henry was still a fervent believer in Roman Catholicism, and there was no CofE, so there was certainly no break between the two in 1530.
but right from this period to the 30 years war in the 18th century, it would be folly to suggest that Luther's breach with the pre-counter reformation church was less than that of his minimal breach with Henry VIII's - he had "bigger fish" both theologically and secularly to fry.
I'm lost. I never said any such thing. What was greater than the breach between Luther and the Roman church was the breach between Luther and the extreme Protestants, in particular over issues like the Mass, the episcopate, vestments, election of ministers, congregational government, liturgy... on all of which the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, and the Lutherans line up on the same side against the Baptists, Congregationalists, Wee Frees and all the other truly protestant denominations.
Much of that is true but has nothing to do with sola fide.
 
Much of the attraction of Luther's theology was politcally based, as it allowed various disparite groups within the Holy Roman empire to rebel and rise up against the imperial authority (or authority in general in some cases). I believe that the examples I've given above have everything to do with "Sola Fide" because I am also concentrating on the political implications of this aspect of Sola fide as well as theological.
Then you can hardly ignore sola scriptura, which is the chief reason for objecting to Roman Catholic doctrine as it had developed, in particular of course the claim of continuous revelation which underlies to position of the Pope, and eventually lies back of the authority of the Roman hierarchy.
Much of the political attraction of Lutheranism came from what it would entail due to it's theological rejection of Catholicism in many respects - therefore the effects of one of it's undisputably key principles cannot be left unnoticed.
But that's just what you are doing by pinning everything on sola fide. OK, salvation through faith without good works, but where is that faith to come from. Sola scriptura provides the answer - it comes from scripture with no întermediaries on earth. Luther didn't take that doctrine as far as other church leaders (he doesn't suggest every man can make up his own mind through reading the Bible) but he does on that one issue seriously challenge the right of the Church to impose doctrine because of its unique relationship with the Holy Spirit.
 
The whole Reformation as it involves Luther and the Church of England is not at heart about theology, but about power and authority and theological arguments are advanced and deployed to that end. So it's the challenge to authority of sola scriptura that is important, not some abstruse theory about salvation (do we do good works because we have faith? Do we do good works because we believe and/or are elect for salvation or do we earn salvation through doing good works and believing.)
 
Luther's quarrel - amd more importantly historically - the quarrel of those who supported him was not really about whether good works lead to salvation, but about who got to decide what those good works were: as, for instance, the buying of indulgences.
But the Lutheran churches were and still are episcopal. In fact when at one time there was a suggestion that the Nordic Lutherans join with the Church of England, it fell through because the Lutherans thought the CoE too protestant for them, npt too catholic.
 
Point taken, but you can't deny that Catholic hierarchy is far more ritual and extensive than that of the Lutheran and other protestant churches - it's inevitable with a church that has lasted roughly from around 1054 and covered a large chunk of Europe.
My point is more that the Anglican and Lutheran liturgies and rituals are much closer to Rome than they are to, say, Baptists. Especially of course nowadays.
 
...Also, I appreciate your advice, but take into account I did write this on the absolute spur of the moment very quickly - so it's not exactly meticulously revised. I think it's okay though
I appreciate you were rushed.


Edited by gcle2003 - 31-Jul-2008 at 15:27
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 16:37

What were his other "solae"? I haven't read about any other apart from "fide" and, in passing, "scriptura"?

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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 17:56
In the end luther was wrong because scripture states "Works without faith is empty, faith without works is empty." So it isn't "faith alone" but a composition of things. Luther's theology was a bit warped, more a counter reaction to the excesses of the church of rome then an actual theological backing, though he sure tried.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 18:22
In the end luther was wrong because scripture states "Works without faith is empty, faith without works is empty."
 
Good point, Carpathian Wolf, but take into account that some attempts at compromise were attemped, such as the diet of Regensburg in 1541, where Cardinal Conditerri and Melanchanton actually came to an agreement that both works and faith were important. However, it's important to understand that any scripture-based religion usually  cuts apart into several distinct sects, as protestantism did. Although all of the members of, say, the Schmalkadic league of 1531 or the league of Torgau of 1526 all agreed roughly (mainly in the second case when Luther's rising was now a large issue for Charles) upon the key principles laid out in the Schmalkaldic declarations of the 1540s or the confession of Augsburg of 1530, internally there was much debate and schism. For example, at the marburg colloqy, Luther and Zwingli debated fiercely on the issue of the Eucharist, despite the fact that Zwingli was later to die in battle against one of Luther's princely enemies in the Holy Roman Empire. It really doesn't matter what the scripture literally said - now that the scripture was in the venacular and "sola scriptura" was advocated, anyone could use it to their advantage - hence the disunity of the protestants at the councils of Trent from the mid 1530s to the 1540s. Many such as the "Zwickau prophets" of 1520 used the scripture to their own advantage and interpreted it in terms of social upheaval, leading to Thomas Muntzer's leadership of the peasant revolt in 1525. However, on the other hand, we've got the battle of Frankhausen in 1526, where Luther provides scriptural evidence to justify the massacre of peasants by the imperial princes. Scripture can be interpreted in any way one likes, and therefore, Luther wasn't "wrong" or "right" in any helpful sense of the term. This can be seen in hundreds of examples in the reformation period - for example, Luther and the Christian humanists both wanted reform of the church, but those such as Erasmus, Rubeanius Cocteus, Marsiglino, Machavelli, Melancathon etc all wanted to reform the church from within by non-violent methods (it's interesting that even Melanchanton and Machavelli are both determined to be Christian Humanists despite their obvious differences - again, these ideologies are broad markers for radically different interpretations), but those such as Luther, Andreas von Karlstadt, Ulrich von Hutten, Zwingli, Huss, Wycliffe, Calvin, Tyndale etc all wanted to by violence and political agression - but both justified their position by academic interpretation of the scripture. In a nutshell, scripture can mean whatever you want it to mean. However, there are some extreme exceptions - some of the anabaptists had radical ideas for the time that Jesus was not the son of god, and that baptism and the eucharist (the latter is a Zwinglian idea as well) were all merely memorials to Christ and his life. These interpretations would have just been considered "wrong". Incidentally, much of the interpretation also depends on the "Thomists" and "Aristotelean churchmen" versus the "Nominalists" - the latter was a humanist position that denied the Aristotelean principle of universals, and thus logically lead to a denial of the bread containing a "universal" in the true body and blood of christ. Therefore, for people who were in this new humanist mindset, they may not have been able to comprehend or even attempt to understand the old teachings of aristotelean logic by the schoolmen. My point on syllogisms here is that interpretation of the scripture went beyond scripture itself, if you see what I mean.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 18:51
Oh no doubt, i'm just commenting from an Orthodox perspective. Papal or protestant, two sides of the same coin for me. :)
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 18:52
Are you an orthodox Christian? What do they think about the Eucharist?
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 18:58
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

What were his other "solae"? I haven't read about any other apart from "fide" and, in passing, "scriptura"?

 
sola Gratia—solo Christo—soli Deo gloria.
 
By grace alone, by Christ alone (the sacrifice of the Redemption),  glory to God alone.
 
No salvation without grace, and no salvation without the Redemption I don't think any Christian group would quarrel with. You might not think the last would create much controversy, but Luther used it to denounce the glorification of the Church - in that it is rather like sola scriptura in that it challenges Church pretensions. However St John of the Cross had used the phrase in a more straightforward way.
 
The phrase is also taken to mean no veneration of saints, but, again, not by the Lutherans, who have a calendar of saints and venerate them. This is something else again where Lutherans, the Roman Catholics, the Orthodox churches, and the Anglicans join together on one side, and what I would actually call the Protestants - Calvinists, etc - take the other.
 
In fact any of the solae can probably be read as implying the Church itself was unnecessary to salvation. But I don't think Luther meant that there should be no Church - that has to wait for the Congregationalists later in the century -  just that the Roman church pretended to more authority and power than it should.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 19:54
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

Are you an orthodox Christian? What do they think about the Eucharist?
 
It's a mystery we can't afford to make any definate judgements on but what we do know we know from Christ. "Eat this is my body which has been broken for you, drink, this is my blood shed for the remission of sins." The catholic's mistake was making definate judgements on something we can't comprehend as humans in our current state, while the protestants counter reacted against it by relegating it to simply being "something done im memory."
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 20:41
"the term "Christian" logically means following the teachings of Christ - therefore, logically, practices which do not come from the scriptures cannot be considered fully Christian."
 
This doesn't make any sense friend. Even in scripture it states that you must follow the traditions of the church by word and by deed. What about the Christians in the first several hundred years of Church history? The bible wasn't even complete then. Were those people not Christian then?
 
The problem with protestant theology is that it turns a book into God, a "paper pope".
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  Quote Menumorut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 20:42
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

the term "Christian" logically means following the teachings of Christ - therefore, logically, practices which do not come from the scriptures cannot be considered fully Christian.


The New Testament is a collection of accidental books by diverse authors, it was not intented to be a complete work of Revelation.

The doctrine of the old churches, Orthodox, Catholic, Monophysites, is that not the Scripture but what is called the Holy Tradition is the base of belief and practices. The Holy Tradition is a term for all manifestations of the Church in all the epochs, starting with the time of Jesus and Apostles and including the orally transmited teachings, the diverse writings, the liturgical services, the decisions of the Councils etc.


This includes the Scriptures but the Scriptures are not the base of faith and never have been in an eclesiastic meaning because the life and practices of the Church preceded with decades the apparition of the gospels and epistles and after that continuated to be grounded on the traditions directly transmitted in the communities.

The Scriptures influenced the decisions of the Councils and much of the theological writings (although is considered that many or most of the ascetical/theological/mystic writers, the so-called Holy Fathers, have been directly inspired by God) but them (the Scriptures) are considered incomplete and insufficient for defining the faith points.

The Holy Tradition is considered to be mostly good and useful, those books and authors that contain grave heretical teachings have been excluded but there are small doctrinal errors in the writings of the Fathers and perhaps even in the New Testament.

There are few official reglementations of the faith in the old Oriental Churches (Orthodox and Monophysites) and they are the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils and are called dogmas. The Orthodox Church recognizes seven Ecumenical Councils, after the last one the doctrine of the church being considered complete and other Ecumenical Councils useless. The Monophysites recognize 3 Councils (they have been declared heretics at the fourth) and Catolics consider that the Revelation is continuous and that the Church's doctrine is in permanent evolution.

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 21:38

But I don't think Luther meant that there should be no Church

Of course not - I never meant that. I mean that by questioning the scriptures in such a dynamic way in a country with the socio-political problems of the Holy Roman Empire and ther utilisation of the printing press, it was bound to spread and cause various other interpretations to run wild. That's a problem many monarchs found when they instated protestantism in some sense - the traditional principle of there being only one religion was completely turned upon its head when people began chatting about matters of severe theological importance in pubs, and therefore undermining the traditional principle of the "great chain of being". Therefore, the garguantuan hierarchy of the catholic church was undermined when Luther dennounced the papacy as an insitution - and for German peasants and the imperial knights in this period there were obviously many advantages. Granted, Luther thought in a fundamentally medieval mindset in social matters and wanted there to be a "great chain of being" - that's why he denounced the teachings of those such as Thomas Muntzer and Andreas Von Karlstadt who used Luther's teachings to completely overturn almost all clerical hierarchy, but one cannot deny that Luther would not have approved of chapters and suchlike. Of course Luther didn't want to destroy the church fully, but he wanted to damn well change it not just theologically, but institutionally as well.
 
However, from your perspective, one could argue against what I've said above by saying that Luther initially respected the pope and wanted to encourage reform from within the church, and it was only until his meeting with Cajetan in 1518 and the Leipzig disputation with Johann Eck in 1519 that he realised that he would have to make his own steps for theological reform rather than do it through the church. Again, Luther's presence at the council of Trent also backs up your point, as the council of trent from the mid 1530s onwards was initiated not only to try and reconsile the catholics and protestants, but also to try and address the abuses of the church - the council of Trent was one of the beginings of the catholic counter reformation itself. I'm begining to see your point more now :) after all - he was a monk first and foremost, and tried to reform and aid his own theological dilemma from within the catholic church rather than turning to Hussism or Tyndale etc.
 
Catolics consider that the Revelation is continuous and that the Church's doctrine is in permanent evolution.
 
Perhaps theologically, but when you have people like Alexander VI, Julius II, Pauls III and IV and Leo X calling the shots, they are not going to want to change their doctrine in any way that would give the laity or any foreign political entity more power over the church - remember that after the c.1370 schism in the papacy, it's fair to say that the vast majority of members of the Curia and Papacy were in it for their own nepotistic interests, or were preoccupied with trying desperately to free the papacy from the influence of the French and Holy Romans. Many of the popes that actually did want reform such as Adrian IV and Clement VII did not have the influence or circumstances in which and with which to actually enforce reform. Adrian died pretty soon and Clement VII was essentially held hostage by Charles after 1527. Obviously, theory and practice - especially in this age - were pretty different.


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 31-Jul-2008 at 21:44
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 21:51
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

It's a mystery we can't afford to make any definate judgements on but what we do know we know from Christ. "Eat this is my body which has been broken for you, drink, this is my blood shed for the remission of sins." The catholic's mistake was making definate judgements on something we can't comprehend as humans in our current state, while the protestants counter reacted against it by relegating it to simply being "something done im memory."


Aye. To clarify a bit: It has been alleged by Protestants that the definition of the Synod of Jerusalem in the 17th century regarding the Eucharist is simply an Eastern form of the doctrine of transubstantiation, but this is not so. What is missing -- and rightly so -- is the Latin dissection of the sacrament into Aristotelian categories. Or as John of Damascus notes, it is enough for us to know that the change comes about by through the action of the Holy Spirit -- hence the absolute need for the epiclesis during the consecration.

Originally posted by Menumorut

The Holy Tradition is considered to be mostly good and useful, those books and authors that contain grave heretical teachings have been excluded but there are small doctrinal errors in the writings of the Fathers and perhaps even in the New Testament.


Of course the errors are only errors insofar as they have been misinterpreted. Thus, the doctrinal errors are not in the New Testament itself, but in the erroneous interpretation.

Originally posted by Menumorut

The Orthodox Church recognizes seven Ecumenical Councils, after the last one the doctrine of the church being considered complete and other Ecumenical Councils useless. The Monophysites recognize 3 Councils (they have been declared heretics at the fourth) and Catolics consider that the Revelation is continuous and that the Church's doctrine is in permanent evolution.


I don't think the definition of Nicaea II precludes the possibility of other Ecumenical Councils being summoned -- simply the possibility of abrogating the matters it decreed on, as well as those defined by the earlier councils. There are several councils with strong claims to ecumenicity, and some which have been considered of an ecumenical character, though they have not been enumerated. Professor Dragas (I think he teaches at Holy Cross) actually wrote a rather interesting piece on the pro-Photian synod which addressed this matter briefly.

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 31-Jul-2008 at 21:54
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jul-2008 at 23:31
Aye. To clarify a bit: It has been alleged by Protestants that the definition of the Synod of Jerusalem in the 17th century regarding the Eucharist is simply an Eastern form of the doctrine of transubstantiation, but this is not so. What is missing -- and rightly so -- is the Latin dissection of the sacrament into Aristotelian categories. Or as John of Damascus notes, it is enough for us to know that the change comes about by through the action of the Holy Spirit -- hence the absolute need for the epiclesis during the consecration.
 
Could you please elaborate on that? I don't quite understand what you are saying here but it sounds damn interesting.


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 31-Jul-2008 at 23:31
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 12:26
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

But I don't think Luther meant that there should be no Church

Of course not - I never meant that.
I didn't mean you did, but other people do. One of the problems with discussing Luther is that everyone wants a piece of him, including those who take sola scriptura to mean 'no church' like the congregationalists.
 
 I mean that by questioning the scriptures in such a dynamic way in a country with the socio-political problems of the Holy Roman Empire and ther utilisation of the printing press, it was bound to spread and cause various other interpretations to run wild. That's a problem many monarchs found when they instated protestantism in some sense - the traditional principle of there being only one religion was completely turned upon its head when people began chatting about matters of severe theological importance in pubs, and therefore undermining the traditional principle of the "great chain of being". Therefore, the garguantuan hierarchy of the catholic church was undermined when Luther dennounced the papacy as an insitution - and for German peasants and the imperial knights in this period there were obviously many advantages.
True. I said I don't quarrel with what you say about historic events, just with your placing so much emphasis on sola fide. (And a couple of places where you regurgitate Protestant views as if they were generally accepted.)
 
Granted, Luther thought in a fundamentally medieval mindset in social matters and wanted there to be a "great chain of being" - that's why he denounced the teachings of those such as Thomas Muntzer and Andreas Von Karlstadt who used Luther's teachings to completely overturn almost all clerical hierarchy, but one cannot deny that Luther would not have approved of chapters and suchlike. Of course Luther didn't want to destroy the church fully, but he wanted to damn well change it not just theologically, but institutionally as well.
 
However, from your perspective, one could argue against what I've said above by saying that Luther initially respected the pope and wanted to encourage reform from within the church, and it was only until his meeting with Cajetan in 1518 and the Leipzig disputation with Johann Eck in 1519 that he realised that he would have to make his own steps for theological reform rather than do it through the church. Again, Luther's presence at the council of Trent also backs up your point, as the council of trent from the mid 1530s onwards was initiated not only to try and reconsile the catholics and protestants, but also to try and address the abuses of the church - the council of Trent was one of the beginings of the catholic counter reformation itself. I'm begining to see your point more now :) after all - he was a monk first and foremost, and tried to reform and aid his own theological dilemma from within the catholic church rather than turning to Hussism or Tyndale etc.
'Catholic counter reformation' is good Smile Protestants call it the Reformation and Catholics call it the Catholic Reformation so a neat compromise.
 
Catolics consider that the Revelation is continuous and that the Church's doctrine is in permanent evolution.
 
Perhaps theologically, but when you have people like Alexander VI, Julius II, Pauls III and IV and Leo X calling the shots, they are not going to want to change their doctrine in any way that would give the laity or any foreign political entity more power over the church - remember that after the c.1370 schism in the papacy, it's fair to say that the vast majority of members of the Curia and Papacy were in it for their own nepotistic interests, or were preoccupied with trying desperately to free the papacy from the influence of the French and Holy Romans.
That men are fallible and corruption has invaded the Church doesn't alter the belief that the Revelation did not end with the Bible. There's a case to be made that the very councils that determined the contents of the New Testament were themselves ambitious and nepotistic.
The message of the Church on matters of faith and morals is not affected by the conduct of the messenger. (At least, that's the Catholic belief - I maybe should add that I'm not presenting my own views here, not being any kind of religious believer.
Many of the popes that actually did want reform such as Adrian IV and Clement VII did not have the influence or circumstances in which and with which to actually enforce reform. Adrian died pretty soon and Clement VII was essentially held hostage by Charles after 1527. Obviously, theory and practice - especially in this age - were pretty different.
I think you're right about the practice but wrong about the theory.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 12:31
Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

It's a mystery we can't afford to make any definate judgements on but what we do know we know from Christ. "Eat this is my body which has been broken for you, drink, this is my blood shed for the remission of sins." The catholic's mistake was making definate judgements on something we can't comprehend as humans in our current state, while the protestants counter reacted against it by relegating it to simply being "something done im memory."


Aye. To clarify a bit: It has been alleged by Protestants that the definition of the Synod of Jerusalem in the 17th century regarding the Eucharist is simply an Eastern form of the doctrine of transubstantiation, but this is not so.
I know the habit is hard to break and I get caught by it myself sometimes, but I think it helps to define a little more closely what you mean by 'Protestant'. What Carpathian Wolf says about Protestants and "something done in memory" is not true of all the groups that are sometimes called 'Protestant' (though it is true of the ones that I would call "really Protestant" Smile)


Edited by gcle2003 - 01-Aug-2008 at 12:32
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Aug-2008 at 16:30
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by Akolouthos

Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

It's a mystery we can't afford to make any definate judgements on but what we do know we know from Christ. "Eat this is my body which has been broken for you, drink, this is my blood shed for the remission of sins." The catholic's mistake was making definate judgements on something we can't comprehend as humans in our current state, while the protestants counter reacted against it by relegating it to simply being "something done im memory."


Aye. To clarify a bit: It has been alleged by Protestants that the definition of the Synod of Jerusalem in the 17th century regarding the Eucharist is simply an Eastern form of the doctrine of transubstantiation, but this is not so.
I know the habit is hard to break and I get caught by it myself sometimes, but I think it helps to define a little more closely what you mean by 'Protestant'. What Carpathian Wolf says about Protestants and "something done in memory" is not true of all the groups that are sometimes called 'Protestant' (though it is true of the ones that I would call "really Protestant" Smile)


Aye, a definition would have been helpful, especially since I was using the term "Protestant" in two different senses (subconsciously, I assure you). LOL

In the first sense (the intended one) I was referring to the academic Protestantism of the mid-to-late 19th century. I believe that the passage I was hinting at came from a reference to the Synod of Jerusalem in the first volume of Schaff's Creeds of Christendom, but I'd have to check. In this sense we may say that Western scholarship has examined the decrees of the synod and come to the wrong conclusion -- at least from my point of view. As I see it, the natural opposition of 19th century Protestant academia to Roman Catholicism led these western scholars to inherently distrust anything that smacked of popery, and miss the distinction between saying that something is and saying how something is. At this earlier point, at least in the academic world, I believe we can refer to Protestantism as a somewhat homogeneous movement, at least in the context of this particular issue.

In the second sense (the subconscious one) I could be referring to the lack of understanding among many Evangelicals today. Mainstream Protestant academia in the modern era, especially in Churches which have a well developed concept of hierarchy and tradition, has done much more justice to Eastern sacramental theology, and can make the distinction between the Greek and Latin views -- although often without fully accepting either. Much of the scholarship coming out of the less hierarchical/tradition oriented churches, however, still displays an ignorance of the debate between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church over Eucharistic theology, and is thus largely unable to make a distinction between the two.

In both situations we notice a lack of understanding, but the former stems from an examination which was impeded by an inherent hostility, while the latter stems from a simple lack of study.

My apologies for being unclear; it will probably happen again, but we can always hope for improvement, eh? Smile

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 01-Aug-2008 at 16:31
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