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The Origins of Japanese people

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Shield-of-Dardania View Drop Down

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  Quote Shield-of-Dardania Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Origins of Japanese people
    Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 02:38
Actually, Crypt, Cyr's Sumerian story may not have been that far fetched.
About two thousand years ago (48 AD), a 16-year-old Indian princess from Ayodhya sailed to the Kaya kingdom which is now known as Kimhae city in Korea and married the ruler of the place, King Kim Suro, founder of the ancient Korean kingdom of Karak. Her Koreanised name was Heo Hwang-Ok.
"Heo Hwang-Ok, she is our traditional girl. In 48 CE, she married one of our Kings, King Suro. She was one of his wives, and she came to Korea from India," said Kim Jung Kil, former Minister of Justice, Korea.

According to the legend, Heo's parents had dreamt of King Suro that he had not yet found a Queen. So her parents told her to go to the King, and marry him.

She was the first queen of Geumgwan Gaya, and is considered an ancestor by several Korean lineages. It is believed that Queen Heo's descendants today number more than six-million, including the former South Korean President - Kim Dae Jung.

A memorial was built in 2001 in Faizalabad, to pay homage to the ancient Queen. Since then every year Queen Heo's descendants come to India from Korea to pay homage to their royal ancestor.
A 50-member South Korean delegation recently (2007) visited the monument dedicated to Queen Heo Hwang-Ok, their royal ancestor and paid homage to her in Faizalabad, Uttar Pradesh, India.

"Since I was excited, I went for Busan Asian Games in Korea I came to know that an Indian princess was married to a King of Korea. I went to Gimhae and I was welcomed heartily there. I prayed at King's and Queen's tomb," said Brigadier N. B. Singh, Director General, Sports Council and Advisor for Commonwealth Games at Edinburgh.

Archaeologists discovered a stone with two fish kissing each other, a symbol of the ancient Gaya kingdom in Korea, that is unique to the Mishra royal family in Ayodhya.

The Koreans regard the Mishra family as the descendants/relatives of Hwang-Ok because this family, like the Kaya/Gaya royal family of Korea, has two fishes as the insignia. (ANI)

The way I see it, if an Indian princess could go to Korea in 48 AD, so could some Sumerians have gone to Japan earlier. If Heo Kwang-Ok's descendants could surpass 6 million within 2 thousand years, you could imagine the number of descendants a group of, say, 50 Sumerians, would have produced in Japan in, what, say 4000 years ...

Edited by Shield-of-Dardania - 28-Apr-2010 at 03:17
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Cryptic View Drop Down
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 09:57
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

you could imagine the number of descendants a group of, say, 50 Sumerians, would have produced in Japan in, what, say 4000 years ...
I see your point. 50 individuals or so is entirely feasible. 
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ETL_Guy View Drop Down

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  Quote ETL_Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2011 at 12:47

I am posting this here because I think it is relevant to discussion on this topic.  My goal isn't to prove or disprove anything related to true origins of Japanese, and I will identify several flaws in the fundamentals that would rule this info out as hard evidence of one origin vs. another.  However, I think the results are interesting in the context of discussion of Japanese origins on this thread.

I am of Japanese and mixed European maternal ancestry, born in the USA.  My maternal grandmother is from Osaka.  My maternal grandfather, from what I can tell through traditional genealogy, is primarily of north European ancestry, with most ancestors arriving from Germany, Prussia, Norway, and England in the 1800's.  My mtDNA is Haplogroup D, which is common among multiple east Asian nationalities.  I do not have a D sub-group identified at this time.

I am of mixed European paternal ancestry, with a few traditional genealogical references to what may have been full or mixed Cherokee lineage.  I have no hard evidence (DNA, pictures, etc.) for Native American ancestry.  My Y-DNA is Haplogroup G and arrived in North America in the 1600's from England.  It is in minority there among R1a,R1b,etc. and exactly how it arrived in England is unknown.  G is more common among populations in the Mediterranian and Caucasus regions, and also exists in some fairly large numbers in Central Asia among the Magyars (likely ancestors of Huns) and other groups like Uighurs.  It also exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and to a lesser degree India.  All of this is background on my paternal lineage, not relevant to origins of Japanese, but relevant to the autosomal DNA analysis results below, which should be based on both paternal and maternal genetic matches.

The provider for the autosomal DNA results below is a private company DNA Tribes.  I have some skepticism about the accuracy of their methods.  Their autosomal matching algorithms and database are proprietary.  The science of autosomal matching for deep ancestry is criticized as innaccurate.  However, I can say that I have a completely anglo-American name, and answered no questionaire to indicate I had any Asian heritage, so all Asian matches they have provided were not biased by outside information.

The aspect of these results that surprised me the most were the number and strength of Indian and Australian Aboriginal matches that I had.  I fully expected to have many European matches, as well as a number of east and central Asian matches.  The other thing that surprised me was that despite Japanese being my single most identifiable ethnicity at 25%, there were very few hits on Japanese groups, and those hits were weak, none in the top 100.  This may be due to a simple lack of comprehensive Japanese reference samples in the DNA Tribes database.

See the list below.  The label is obviously the nationality or ethnicity being compared to, the (0.nn) is the percentage of match compared to the entire reference population for that group, and the nnn.nn is a multiplier representing the number of times more likely I am to be that nationality, compared to a reference population for the entire world population.  I have included only my top 100 matches.

1 Salar (Qinghai, China) (0.62) 370.84
2 Kirgiz (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.3) 208.96
3 Oman (0.39) 206.58
4 Indian (Singapore) (0.51) 197.29
5 Turkey (0.28) 190.69
6 Evenki (Inner Mongolia, China) (0.34) 183.25
7 Bonan (Gansu, China) (0.4) 175.48
8 Indian (United Arab Emirates) (0.45) 174.53
9 Lazio, Italy (0.2) 162.10
10 Kamma Chaudhary (Andhra Pradesh, India) (0.43) 153.21
11 Uzbek (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.37) 143.12
12 Israel (0.22) 142.61
13 Tomsk, Russia (0.26) 135.26
14 South Asian (United Kingdom) (0.33) 132.52
15 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (South Australia) (0.31) 125.98
16 Costa Rica (0.23) 122.53
17 Spain (0.14) 121.39
18 Italy (0.2) 112.89
19 East Indian (Canada) (0.25) 111.88
20 Han (Xian, Shaanxi, China) (0.16) 110.41
21 Han (Henan, China) (0.15) 107.49
22 Han (Qinghai, China) (0.19) 104.64
23 Indian (Dubai, UAE) (0.4) 102.81
24 Mestizo (Argentina) (0.16) 100.55
25 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Riverine Region, Australia) (0.23) 99.30
26 Southeast Asian (New Zealand) (0.36) 97.12
27 Kuwait (0.11) 94.29
28 Puerto Rican (Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A.) (0.17) 92.06
29 Greece (0.14) 91.84
30 Turkey (0.15) 90.14
31 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Western Australia) (0.25) 89.98
32 Sergipe, Brazil (0.14) 88.96
33 Calabria, Italy (0.16) 87.31
34 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Queensland, Australia) (0.32) 86.45
35 Italy (0.11) 83.20
36 Kurdish (Northern Iraq) (0.15) 82.77
37 Tu (Qinghai China) (0.4) 81.87
38 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Northeast Australia) (0.55) 80.73
39 Istanbul, Turkey (0.16) 80.43
40 Oman (0.28) 79.74
41 Caucasian (Tasmania, Australia) (0.12) 78.48
42 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (0.08) 78.30
43 Beijing, China (0.13) 78.10
44 Pakistan (0.29) 74.03
45 Spain (0.08) 71.68
46 Caucasian (New South Wales, Australia) (0.12) 70.32
47 Turkey (0.16) 70.07
48 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (New South Wales, Australia) (0.16) 69.92
49 Hungary (0.11) 69.78
50 Han (Shaanxi, China) (0.15) 69.04
51 Flemish (Belgium) (0.09) 68.93
52 Arab (Israel) (0.12) 66.91
53 Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany (0.09) 65.91
54 Afghanistan (0.25) 65.74
55 Basque (Basque Country, Spain) (0.08) 65.44
56 Turkey (0.15) 64.96
57 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Northern Territory, Australia) (0.37) 64.70
58 Caucasian (Capital Territory, Australia) (0.11) 64.66
59 Northwest Spain (0.09) 64.56
60 Bedouin (Negev, Israel) (0.18) 64.23
61 Northern Greece (0.11) 63.90
62 Flemish (0.1) 63.87
63 Hungary (0.11) 63.75
64 Genoa, Italy (0.19) 62.66
65 Dongxiang (Qinghai, China) (0.26) 62.61
66 Central and Southern Iraq (0.14) 62.29
67 Aboriginal (Tiwi Islands, Australia) (0.21) 61.84
68 Xibe (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.15) 60.99
69 Tu (Northwest China) (0.24) 60.24
70 Nepal (0.25) 60.09
71 Buddhist (Ladakh, India) (0.34) 57.56
72 Austria (0.08) 57.18
73 Brac, Croatia (0.1) 57.07
74 Csango (Romania) (0.06) 57.04
75 Turkey (0.13) 56.67
76 Gujarat, India (0.31) 56.49
77 Bogota, Colombia (0.17) 56.28
78 Greece (0.1) 56.24
79 Abov-Gemer, Eastern Slovakia (0.06) 55.70
80 Northern Portugal (0.06) 55.67
81 Han (North China) (0.1) 55.14
82 United Kingdom (0.08) 55.11
83 Greece (0.1) 54.83
84 Caucasian (U.S.A.) (0.09) 54.80
85 Toulouse, France (0.07) 54.73
86 Indian (Malaysia) (0.26) 53.97
87 Santa Fe, Argentina (0.15) 53.69
88 United Kingdom (0.1) 52.80
89 Han (Beijing, China) (0.08) 51.45
90 Buenos Aires, Argentina (0.13) 50.94
91 Central Portugal (0.07) 50.50
92 Northern Portugal (0.07) 50.36
93 London, England (0.09) 50.32
94 Greece (0.14) 49.41
95 Mainland Croatia (0.09) 49.41
96 Serbia (0.08) 49.41
97 Northern Pakistan (0.22) 49.32
98 Iban (Sarawak, Malaysia) (0.07) 48.66
99 Belem, Brazil (0.14) 48.62
100 Mendoza, Argentina (0.14) 47.97
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Guests View Drop Down
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2011 at 07:45
I think my post is worthy of reviving this discussion Wink

I am Uzbek, come from Central Asia and speak its languages.

I will simply state the things I found out (and keep finding) about similarities between Japanese language and Central Asian languages:

Japanese:                                                               Central Asian:
"Kuro" - Black                                                         "Kora/Qora" - Black (Uzbek)
"Shiro" - White                                                        "Shir" - Milk (Tajik)
"sui/mizu" - Water                                                   "Suv" - Water (Uzbek)
"Hon" - A book                                                        "Hon!" - Read! (Tajik)
"Onna" - A woman                                                   "Ona" - Mother (Uzbek)
"Otou-sama" - Father                                               "Ota" - Father (Uzbek)
"Chorou" - An elder                                                  "Chol" - An old man (Uzbek)  
"Uchuu" - universe, space                                         "Uch, uchuvchi!" - Fly, pilot! (Uzbek)
"Sono toori" - That's correct.                                     "Shu to'g'ri" - That's correct.
"Damaru!" - Be silent!                                              "Dam!" - Be quiet/silent! (Uzbek)             
"Teppeki no" - impregnable                                      "Tepalik" - A hill, high ground (Uzbek)
"-dono" - honorifics for lords/masters                        "Dono" - A wise one (Uzbek)

....and many many more, just can't remember all right now

Edited by madao - 21-Jul-2011 at 07:47
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jafflen View Drop Down

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  Quote jafflen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2011 at 07:22
in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia. It is now believed that the modern Japanese descend mostly from the interbreeding of the Jomon Era people (15,000-500 BCE), composed of the above Ice Age settlers, and a later arrival from China and/or Korea. Around 500 BCE, the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses.
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Guests View Drop Down
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 17:44
I m from Okinawa and I have to agree with this.
Ryukyuan language and Japanese, they share the similarities.
Achisan=Atsui a lot of consonants are the same.
Non-Japanese people tell me that I dont look Japanese.(I usually get Native Taiwanese,HKnese, Thai, or Filipino) thats fine to me.
 What annoys me the most being Okinawan is that when I m in Tokyo or abroad,
Japanese ppl who believe in one race bullshit, they ask me "are you sure you are Japanese?""Are you mixed?""Where you born in abroad?""You have a foreign accent". the worst one was "Your Japanese is good" It makes me wonder if I m pure Japanese.
If you believe in one nation, one language, and one shit, they shouldnt be judgemental and they should really learn whats in their nation before going abroad.
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vaffangool View Drop Down
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  Quote vaffangool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2014 at 21:59
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by pebbles

....tell it to hypernationalist Korean wackos and non-NE Asian surrogates pushing their...non-Chinese origin of Japanese & Korean agenda....
in reality most people fall outside these stereotypes....frankly I have no idea where your "slender built"/"big-bone bulky physical built" idea comes from.

China, duh.  ~ Wink ~  Although I don't see why pebbles should be so sensitive about being excluded.

It's just a long-overdue acknowledgement of ethnic affinity—not some sort of incipient strategic conspiracy.
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medenaywe View Drop Down
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  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:32
Welcome aboard vaffangool.Smile

Edited by medenaywe - 08-Dec-2014 at 00:32
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vaffangool View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
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  Quote vaffangool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:34
Originally posted by

Japanese have 23% haplogroup O3a5, which is a Chinese specific haplogroup

Haplogroup O3 occurs at high frequencies among the peoples of northeast- and southeast Asia, comprising 50% or more of the total Y-chromosome variation among Sinitic-, Tibeto-Burman, and Hmong-Mien speaking populations.

Moreover, the NHA article you cite [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 59:579-590, 1996does not support your seemingly Sinocentric Weltanschauung:

Among 14 sequence types shared between two populations, 
  • 5 were found in common between the Koreans and mainland Japanese;
  • 3 between the mainland Japanese and Ainu;
  • 2 between the Chinese and Koreans;
  • 1 between the Chinese and Ainu;
  • 1 between the Koreans and Ryukyuans;
  • 1 between the Korean and Ainu; and 
  • 1 between the mainland Japanese and Ryukyuans. 
  • 0 between the Chinese and the mainland Japanese
Among the 4 sequence types shared among three populations,
  • 2 were shared among the Koreans, mainland Japanese, and Ryukyuans;
  • 1 among the Chinese, Koreans, and Ainu; and
  • 1 among the Koreans, mainland Japanese and Ainu.
  • 0 among any combination including both Chinese and mainland Japanese.
The non-rigorous comparison misrepresented in your post involves clusters often shared between four- or even all five of the populations--clusters iwhich "lineages from the five Asian populations were completely intermingled in the phylogenetic tree." They were assigned a casual "specificity" (quotation marks theirs) on the basis of the population from which the maximum number of individuals was derived. With the disclaimer that "this assignment of specificity seems to be somewhat arbitrary," they explain the unscientific exercise as one they hoped might be broadly "useful for understanding the relationships of mtDNA sequences among very closely related human populations."

Edited by vaffangool - 08-Dec-2014 at 03:01
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vaffangool View Drop Down
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  Quote vaffangool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:37
Originally posted by medenaywe

Welcome aboard vaffangool.Smile 
Thank you. I foresee lost hours and strained eyesight.

Edited by vaffangool - 08-Dec-2014 at 02:33
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