Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Origins of Japanese people

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Jun-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154
  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Origins of Japanese people
    Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 06:28

Originally posted by pebbles

Yea ... tell it to hypernationalist Korean wackos and non-NE Asian surrogates pushing their pro-Japanese & Korean relatedness or non-Chinese origin of Japanese & Korean ' agenda ' here and elsewhere in cyberspace FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=LOL"

If I run into one, I will. At the moment, though, you're the one who appears to be conflating genetic ancestry with the development of cultural and ethnic identities.

Originally posted by pebbles

Both Japanese & Korean languages shared 50%-60% ' Chinese ' vocabulary.

When they started adopting Chinese vocabulary, along with Chinese writing, these nations already had established cultures of their own. So this doesn't tell us anything about their origins (cultural origins, that is). The Chinese influence on the later development of Japan and Korea is undeniable, of course.

Originally posted by pebbles

One fundamental is that majority typical Japanese have sharp narrower small faces and slender built oppose to broader-faced Koreans with big-bone bulky physical built.

In term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different.


Great disparity of these basic physical characteristics is sufficient to ' debunk ' any argument that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than with other NE Asian groups.

I suppose the stereotypical Japanese and the stereotypical Korean may look somewhat different, but in reality most people fall outside these stereotypes and there is a great deal of overlap in the appearance of actual Korean and Japanese people. And frankly I have no idea where your "slender built"/"big-bone bulky physical built" idea comes from.

Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 21:50
Originally posted by Azvarohi

Plot for japanese people and other asian people based on Y-chromosome comparison and distances:
 
Abstract:
Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9% of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.
 
 


Consider the Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages,which has a Southeast Asian origin established by academic source.
 
How is Japanese ethnicity place in NE Asian racial group not more genetically related to continental SE Asian peoples ?!
 


Edited by pebbles - 23-Oct-2008 at 22:32
Back to Top
Suren View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Chieftain

Joined: 10-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1673
  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 21:55
You guys looks like the same except the Nihonjins are more kawai! I have both Korean and Japanese friends. From my point of view Koreans are more serious in their studies, but Japanese are much cooler to hang out with.Wink
Anfører
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 22:18
 
 
Japan's shoban 諸蕃 ( or 蕃 別 banbetsu ) was a family registry designated Japanese clans known to be of continental descent.


漢帰化族】    naturalized Han-Chinese

周人の末裔【大里氏】【長野氏】【広野氏】【三宅氏】【山田氏】【伊部氏】【白鳥氏】【白原氏】【調氏】【 長岑氏】【首氏】【水海氏】
 
秦の始皇帝の末裔【秦氏】【太秦氏】【惟宗氏】【朝原氏】【大蔵氏】【河勝氏】【桜田氏】【宗氏】【高尾氏】【時原氏】【寺氏】【 秦原氏】【広幡氏】【物集氏】【三林氏】【井手氏】【川辺氏】【中家氏】【原氏】【小宅氏】【井手氏】【長 田氏】【巨知氏】【長岡氏】【奈良氏】【大滝氏】【山村氏】
        
漢の高祖の末裔【厚見氏】【馬氏】【浄野氏】【栗栖氏】【古志氏】【高志氏】【桜野氏】【武生氏】【高道氏 】【玉作氏】【豊岡氏】【春沢氏】【桧前氏】【文氏】【尾津氏】【村主氏】
        
後漢霊帝の末裔【坂上氏】【大蔵氏】【丹波氏】【調氏】【木津氏】【桧原氏】【内蔵氏】【山口氏】【平田氏 】【佐太氏】【谷氏】【桜井氏】【路氏】【文氏】【桧前氏】【蔵人氏】【志賀氏】【広原氏】【池辺氏】【栗 栖氏】
 
その他漢帝の末裔【桑原氏】【下氏】【桧前氏】【若江氏】【田辺氏】【谷氏】【豊岡氏】【八戸氏】【高安氏 】【高道氏】【春井氏】【河内氏】
 
漢の国人の末裔【大原氏】【吉水氏】【真神氏】【台氏】【交野氏】
 
魏人の末裔【高向氏】【上氏】【高根氏】【筑紫氏】【平松氏】【雲梯氏】【郡氏】【河内氏】【河原氏】【鋤 田氏】【野上氏】【広橋氏】【穴太氏】
 
呉人の末裔【蜂田氏】【深根氏】【松野氏】【和楽氏】【工氏】【祝部氏】【額田氏】【勝氏】【上氏】【刑部 氏】【茨田氏】【高向氏】【小豆氏】
 
漢人の末裔【伊吉氏(壱岐氏)】【交野氏】【広海氏】【吉水氏】
 
燕人の末裔【赤染氏】【赤染部氏】【常世氏】【筆氏】
 
唐人の末裔【江田氏】【清宗氏】【清海氏】【清川氏】【浄山氏】【栄山氏】【千代氏】【新長氏 】
 
その他の漢土帰化族【大山氏】【大石氏(生石氏)】【高丘氏】【朝妻氏】【清村氏】【春村氏】
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:06
The frequency of haplogroup O2b is about 35-47% for Koreans and about 20-35% for Japanese.
Haplogroup C3 dominates in Korea (15-20%), Manchuria (20-25%), Siberia (30-50%), while in Japan it only accounts for 1-2% of Japanese.
Haplogroup O3a5 has moderate distributions throughout Asia.

*Japanese also have the haplogroup D2 branch, which has its origins in Africa->Tibet->Japan. Tibetans and Japanese are probably the closest linked ethnic groups.

http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

This research isn't fake, it was done using SNP (Single nucleotide polymorphism). Japanese are probably the least homogenous, genetically. makes sense because its an isolated group of islands.


Edited by zstripe - 02-Nov-2008 at 04:13
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:18
The whole Altaic language group is controversial. If it really exists, then I reckon it should include Korean but not Japanese. 
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 15:37
 
Koreans do not have Y chromosome D2.The D2 system is Ainu 88%, the Okinawa people 56%, mainland Japan 50~56% and Korea 0%.
 

 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 07:36
Y haplogroup D mostly occurs only in Tibet, Japan. It only appears at a frequency of 1-2% outside of these areas. Might explain why Tibetans, Japanese and Chinese are very similar in terms of DNA sequences SNP.

Ainu have about 15-20% haplogroup C3.


Edited by zstripe - 04-Nov-2008 at 07:38
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 15:39
 
50% of Japanese men have DNA YAP+ whereas the Chinese & Koreans don't LOL
 

 
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 18:00
And ?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 19:44
 
The truth of the matter is modern native Japanese are more " indigenous stock " than previously believed that they're basically descended from both Chinese & Korean immigrants.Jomon-jins & Wa-jins account for majority of today's Yamato ethnicity.Torai-jins ( Chinese & Korean ) contributed 10%-15% to Japanese gene pool according to one J scholar.
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by keerisahaizu

The origins of the Japanese people is not entirely clear yet. It is common for Japanese people to think that Japan is not part of Asia since it is an island, cut off from the continent. This tells a lot about how they see themselves in relation to their neighbours. But in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia.

 
 
 
Historians note that despite the catalog of cultural benefits Japan reaped from its links with China and from the peninsula, many Japanese intellectuals started to look down on their Asian neighbors in the late 19th century, in line with an emerging nationalist fervor in Japan.

Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.

"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."

In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.

The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.

During its relatively fallow periods in terms of global influence, however, the country has generally sought to protect its identity by emphasizing its "unique" heritage, he said.
 
Eiji Oguma's online copy of " A Genealogy of 'Japanese' Self-images ",English-translation of his award-winning 1995 book titled Tan'itsu Minzoku Shinwa no Kigen ( The origin of the myth of Japanese as a homogeneous ethnic group or The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation ).
 
 
 
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 20:00
 
' Nihonjiron ' is a theory promotes uniqueness & superiorty of Japanese ethnicity.

Regarding the Japanese have been uncomfortable discussing their ' Asian ' roots.There is ' twofold ' to this matter .

( 1 ) Japanese is one Asian ethnicity consciously ' submerge ' their own family origins in the name of ' Yamatoizaton '.
( 2 ) Fukuzawa Yukichi ( 福澤 諭吉 ) instrumentally led Japan & Japanese ' out of Asia ' mentally and pschologically.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 06:52
And Japanese don't have the pure haplogroup C3 (no subclade) that 15%+ Koreans and Siberians (Nivkhs, Koryaks and Buryats) have.

Plus Japanese are more related to Tibetans (high rates of haplogroup D and O3e/O3a5). Japanese are only 20-30% haplogroup O2b, whereas in Koreans it's around 20-48%.

Haplogroup O3a5a (O3e1) is found in Japanese, Tibetans and southern Han Chinese at moderately high frequencies. In fact nearly all of the Japanese haplogroup O3 belong to O3a5.


Edited by zstripe - 05-Nov-2008 at 07:04
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 06:57
Originally posted by zstripe

The frequency of haplogroup O2b is about 35-47% for Koreans and about 20-35% for Japanese.
Haplogroup C3 dominates in Korea (15-20%), Manchuria (20-25%), Siberia (30-50%), while in Japan it only accounts for 1-2% of Japanese.
Haplogroup O3a5 has moderate distributions throughout Asia.

*Japanese also have the haplogroup D2 branch, which has its origins in Africa->Tibet->Japan. Tibetans and Japanese are probably the closest linked ethnic groups.

http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

This research isn't fake, it was done using SNP (Single nucleotide polymorphism). Japanese are probably the least homogenous, genetically. makes sense because its an isolated group of islands.


It seems that Japanese DNA is more influenced by Eastern groups (Tibetans and Han) than Korean.

Migrations to Korean peninsula was probably a very very long time ago, as Koreans have unique DNA, with less Tibetan and Han DNA. So any gene flow from specifically Han Chinese or Japanese to Koreans is very low.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 07:20
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content-nw/full/172/4/2431/TBL1

Basically shows that nearly all Japanese O3 belongs to O3a5.

In Koreans, most O3 belong to O3*, suggesting ancient origins about 50,000 years ago. In North Koreans, the frequency of O3a5 (O3e) is much lower than other East Asian populations and even some Tungusic peoples.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:30
No body seems to have mentioned the "Ainu" who are the indegenous people of the Japanese Islands before the arrival of the Present day Japanese from the area around northern China and Korea boardering the Russia federation isn the far east.

First Wave Migration of early humans out africa. Some 100,000 to 70,000 years ago.



The Ainu are aboriginal people derived from Austronesians who migrated North East when they split from other Austronesians who migrated southeast to populate south east asia (we know them as Papuans Melenesians and Australian Aboriginies). Some people ofton mistakingly classify them as part Caucasian or deliberatley claim the Ainu as Caucasian in order to co-op their antiquity as for the Europeans. Because of later admixture with mongoliod types some have tried to cliam them as part of the monoloid race of mankind. Argueing that because they are not dark they canoot be Austronesians stock. However DNA show that they are distantly related to the aboriginal peoples of south asia The Austranesians.

The Ainu look like aboriginies but have skin that appears to be white. The are also more hairy than the Japanese. The are discriminated against in japan because of their appearance. There are not many Aunu left in Japan as most were exterminated by there Japanese invaders or assimilated in an attempt to breed them out of the populated. Current Ainu culture hase been influence by Japanese culture, however, they have managed to retain their distinct language though they have borrowed a few Japanese words writing system. The United Nations recently forced the Japanese Government to recognised them as an endangered enthic minority and to protect them buy law from extinction.

Over thousands of years most of the remaining Ainu Have aquired some Japanese Facial features. However theere are some full blood Ainu still left on Hokkiado Island in the north of Japan. It is from the Ainu that the Japanese derive thier samirai mythology.








Edited by SameButDifferent - 05-Nov-2008 at 18:48
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:26
Originally posted by SameButDifferent

It is from the Ainu that the Japanese derive thier samirai mythology.

 
What do you mean by this?
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
pebbles View Drop Down
Baron
Baron


Joined: 12-Oct-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 409
  Quote pebbles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:37
 
In the early 20th century,a few Japanese historians credited the chivalrous ( bushido ) spirits to Ainu.Japan's indigenous people were orignally gifted in craftsmanship and martial valour.
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:58
Weren't the first samurais the frontier guardsmen on the borders with Ainu and Amishu? I read that the Japanese horse archery was actually learned by samurais from Amishu. In this light the argument about bushido adobted from Ainu could indeed make some sense.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 06-Nov-2008 at 16:59
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.