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rednaxela
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Topic: Phaistos Disc declared as fake by scholar Posted: 30-Mar-2017 at 10:47 |
The Minoans worshiped the moon! Structuring the text of the Phaistos
disk shows that it was copied by the disc manufacturer, or with inscriptions
made in the form of three bilateral axes, or with inscriptions on the very
similar axes (labrys) from palace or cave sanctuaries. The text is a list of
the dedications of the main rulers of Crete to the moon god. One of these axes,
the largest, four-blade, could also be used as a kind of lunar calendar. The
disc itself, the moon on the full moon, is a kind of portable version of these
initiations. These initiations were made in order to receive the blessing of
the god of the moon. It is possible that the number of dedications of each
ruler depended on the number of buildings he had (palaces and villas). Hence,
and one more destination of the Phaistos disk is a charm in the form of a snake
coil (the inscriptions on the disk after all in a spiral) for these buildings
and all living in them, tk. The Minoans believed that the serpent in the house
brings God's blessing. The Phaistos disk was made before the largest earthquake
in 1700 BC. Who destroyed the early palace. Since the disk, as a guard, did not
take this palace from destruction, it was later "punished" -
disguised as a layer of plaster in the main cell of the building's hiding
place. For more details see the site: http://phaestos-disk.at.ua
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 22-Nov-2008 at 17:03 |
The controversy continues. More on this topic can be found on sci.lang. Here's Eisenberg's reply to one of his informal critiques: http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.lang/2008-07/msg00659.html . More can read in other theads (just zoom out to the monthly archives, the relevant threads can be recognized by their titles). The article he mentions there was already published: http://www.utexas.edu/research/pasp/publications/pdf/disk1.pdf
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JDavis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 18:04 |
I can certainly appreciate the humor of your statement but must admit I find it exceedingly unlikely; especially in the context of where it was discovered.
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Yiannis
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Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 14:55 |
Or it is the work of a mad Minoan artist who is now laughing his a*s out in the underworld, thinking of the scientists and public who cannot figure his ramblings... even think of that?
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edgewaters
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Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 07:20 |
Originally posted by Nick Canuck
I do know that 'stamps' - to use the term in the broadest sense - have been used to decorate clay vessels since time immemorial. But using them to imprint meaningful symbols, hieroglyphs or letters I think is fairly rare, yes? Or am I mistaken about this? |
AFAIK, the Phaistos disk is the only stamped clay inscription associated with the Minoans. But, stamping was used extensively in the Indus Valley - in fact, I think most Indus inscriptions in clay are stamped. So it's not without precedent, but it is a little odd.
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edgewaters
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Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 07:14 |
Originally posted by red clay
If, as it seems you have been there, you read the bs on Ancient Scripts homepage, it's a mystery" no other like it". Scroll onto the next page where they have copied museum text and you'll see where several scholars have identified some symbols as being Linear script A. |
Most of the script doesn't even vaguely resemble Linear A. As for any symbols that do resemble Linear A, Pernier was an archaeologist who would've seen Linear A inscriptions. So if he forged it, it would be expected that some of the symbols would bear a resemblance.
The field notes written by the original discoverers of this piece seem sound. |
An archaeologist would know how to write field notes that seem sound. And actually,it does seem there have been technical problems with his field notes: Doubting the viability of Pernier's report, Louis Godart (1990) resigns himself to admitting that archaeologically, the disc may be dated to anywhere in Middle or Late Minoan timeshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaistos_Disc Eisenberg isn't the first to suggest it might be a hoax, either. Brian Haughton suspected it before that.
What could be at work here is a combination of intellectual bias and modern nationalism. |
Have you got any particular motivation in mind here? That's a pretty tall accusation to be so unspecific about, even if you think Eisenberg is wrong.
I haven't seen anything ironclad about Dr. Eisenberg's work or anything to separate it from any other speculative work. |
True, although, hoaxes are his area of specialty.
And considering modern political pressures I would have to question the good doctors motivations. |
Again, I think it is unfair to make accusations like this without being a little more specific. I imagine that if Eisenberg were advancing an agenda, he'd be smart enough not to make a falsifiable accusation. Instead, he proposes a thermoluminescence test which can date the artifact. His profession is uncovering hoaxed historical artifacts, so his reputation as being good at his job is on the line here. It seems a little off to me, that he would risk proposing a test if he wasn't fairly confident that it actually is a fake. Besides, what the heck kinda "nationalist motivation" could he have? He's American, Pernier is Italian ... where's the big nationalist historical rivalry between the US and Italy over Crete? It just seems like a really bizarre accusation, sorry. Maybe you could clarify. The museum seems reluctant, which suggests that they're not entirely confident it's genuine either: if the test shows it's a fake, a priceless artifact in their collection will instantly become worthless junk.
Edited by edgewaters - 04-Nov-2008 at 07:32
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Flipper
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Posted: 23-Sep-2008 at 06:38 |
Now, I really want the disc to be examined...I have J.T Hookers book here (Linear B: An introduction, page 41) and I read that back in 1935 an artifact from Arcalochori bearing 15 similar symbols to those on the disc was found. If it is a fake then the founder of the disc must have seen such unpublished symbols before creating the disc, while the next encounter with the same symbols came many years later.
If the Phaestos disc proves fake, then a number of artifacts found by French, Germans, English and Greek archaeologists may be declared fake as well, unless the theory above is proved, namely that the phaestos disc was created based on real hieroglyphs.
Edited by Flipper - 23-Sep-2008 at 20:11
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red clay
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Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 19:39 |
If they can cut chunks of the shroud of turin they can drill holes in the disc. I agree it should be tested. There are three results that can come of this, only one is bad. It can be ruled a fake. It can be decided that it is contemporary with the site it was found, or it can show to be from a much older era. Perhaps from a previously unknown civilzation, who knows?
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Chilbudios
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Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 17:37 |
I was not entirely persuaded by the criticism, but even for the doubts it raised I think the disk should be under further investigation. IMO this is how science works ...
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Nick Canuck
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Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 03:41 |
Hi folks! I don't think of the stamping issue as bearing on its authenticity so much as simply being fascinating on its own. I do know that 'stamps' - to use the term in the broadest sense - have been used to decorate clay vessels since time immemorial. But using them to imprint meaningful symbols, hieroglyphs or letters I think is fairly rare, yes? Or am I mistaken about this?
In terms of discussing its authenticity, I think the best course is to subject the disk to the thermoluminescence test mentioned earlier to add some concrete information to this debate - the damage to the artifact really is minimal and after all it is just a man-made object, not a sacred vessel handed down from the gods!
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JDavis
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Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 23:15 |
I don't think the stamping itself raised any alarms from what I read. Although I am still curious if anyone has ever seen a clay artifact stamped on both sides? That to me seems very peculiar.
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red clay
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Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 18:11 |
Originally posted by Nick Canuck
I was going through my shelves and came across a book I'd forgotten I owned, H.E.L. Mellersh's "The Destruction of Knossos" (B&N 1970). Here's what he has to say about the disk:
"All attempts to fit it into the evolution of Minoan writing have failed, and it is now regarded as a fortuitous import, probably from Anatolia, or the best effort of some ingenious Minoan scribe with a passion for experiment and an esoteric knowledge. Whether it was an experimenting scribe or some innocent but enquiringly minded sailor importing a souvenir, this particular individual certainly caused more mental exertion three and a half millennia later than he can ever have envisaged."
OK, his comments aren't particularly helpful.
One thing we haven't discussed it the technique involved in the creation of the disk. Aren't the glyphs produced by a stamping device, imprinted with each glyph? Are there any other examples of this early printing technique in the ancient Mediterranean or Middle East? Wait a minute of course there are cylinder seals. (I read an interesting theory that the cylinder seals found in Crete may have been worn around the neck and used in commercial transactions as a kind of 'credit card.') Any comments? |
Nick, stampings in soft clay have been used since man started actively producing clay articles, be they vessels or tablets. Just about every culture in the Med. basin used them and globally you find the same frequency of use.
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Nick Canuck
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Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 17:59 |
I was going through my shelves and came across a book I'd forgotten I owned, H.E.L. Mellersh's "The Destruction of Knossos" (B&N 1970). Here's what he has to say about the disk:
"All attempts to fit it into the evolution of Minoan writing have failed, and it is now regarded as a fortuitous import, probably from Anatolia, or the best effort of some ingenious Minoan scribe with a passion for experiment and an esoteric knowledge. Whether it was an experimenting scribe or some innocent but enquiringly minded sailor importing a souvenir, this particular individual certainly caused more mental exertion three and a half millennia later than he can ever have envisaged."
OK, his comments aren't particularly helpful.
One thing we haven't discussed it the technique involved in the creation of the disk. Aren't the glyphs produced by a stamping device, imprinted with each glyph? Are there any other examples of this early printing technique in the ancient Mediterranean or Middle East? Wait a minute of course there are cylinder seals. (I read an interesting theory that the cylinder seals found in Crete may have been worn around the neck and used in commercial transactions as a kind of 'credit card.') Any comments?
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JDavis
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Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 14:11 |
Please! The desire to have resolution to know the truth is somehow juvenile in your eyes? What is it then scholars strive for everyday? Nobody is asking to destroy the artifact or impair it in any fashion. This test is routinely done around the globe with little thought but all of a sudden it is no longer acceptable for this one artifact?
To me what will be greater tragedy than a couple of holes nobody will EVER notice is relegating this artifact to a stage prop. There has been sufficient doubt raised that anyone who uses it for any historical analysis will no longer be taken seriously. So lets keep it as a tourist attraction as they won't know about the controversy and continue to pay their fees to see the famous disc in hopes that someday a lesser invasive technique might be discovered.
Nobody is asking to do anything to the disc that will impair its beauty or value to mankind. I completely agree that we do not rush into situations which can cause harm to artifacts, but I do not see the rationale for your obstinance here. If the procedure is as described and the small holes in the sides are filled with similar / same material to where it will be unnoticeable how does that impair the disc? If this procedure is done all the time and we have trained experts who know and understand the preservation of an artifact performing the test, where is the devastation? I am not saying that my stomach doesn't cringe at the thought of anyone drilling into an artifact. However, in this case where there may be a very real fraud taking place the larger tragedy is to ignore it.
I do not think that a hoax makes for good history. If I want drama I'll tune in to a reality TV show. Healthy debates are wonderful and we can all benefit but history misrepresented doesn't advance our understanding it only propagates ignorance.
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Mercury_Dawn
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Posted: 09-Sep-2008 at 05:43 |
I am not convinced that the disc is a fake. However, there is sufficient
doubt about its authenticity that requires resolution.
I agree with you on everything except this. I recognize it could very well be a fake, but drilling holes into priceless cultural artifacts cause you have to know now.... is NOT something I support. I expect this mentality out of a seven year old. Wait till we have a non-evasive technique for testing it. Until then, it's on the table for investigation irregardless of any person or group's claim to the otherwise, no one has the right to revoke legitimacy in a uncertain case, especially such a suspect uncertainty as your own analysis has shown. Theories come and go, but drill damage don't!
The disk is well protected, there will be a tomorrow to test it out, be it in our lifetime or not. In the time being, we must rest on the fact the approved archaeologist excavated it for the time being as it's claim of legitimacy, though by all means, suspect and conjecture all you want, they make for good what if documentaries and books for a lazy Saturday, and is good for enticing interest in history in general.
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JDavis
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Posted: 08-Sep-2008 at 16:18 |
Let’s take a look at the argument.
First, Jerome Eisenberg Ph.D. is a specialist in determining
fake artifacts. He has associations with world class museums all over the world. I can
find nothing wrong with his credentials or motivation. Here is a quote from
Spartan, “Dr Eisenberg is widely respected as an authority on forgeries in
ancient art and has lectured and presented papers internationally on the
subject since 1968.”
His argument begins with the assertion that “Pernier was
desperate to impress his colleagues”. This motivation for creating a forgery is
the weakest part of his argument as no evidence is given for this assumption. I
always think assumptions are a dangerous ground to tread. I can’t buy this part
of his argument without some evidential support it is simply too speculative. If
it is ever determined the disc is a fake then let people speculate on motive
all they want.
As for his
evaluation, one of the main problems for Eisenburg is ‘The forger has
misunderstood the harmony of an overall ancient design and of its individual
elements.’ Apparantly Dr. Eisenberg uses a stylistic criteria to determine
forgeries. Of the 32 anomalies which indicate forgery, there are 9 present in
the Phaistos Disc. There certainly is a lack of harmony with the disc as
scholars have pointed to both linear A and B, Luwian, Egyptian, Canaanite,
Anatolian, and other sources as possible interpretive models for the script.
Some symbols have models elsewhere, but Eisenberg concludes
that these were well known at the time of the forgery. Nowhere has there been
an artifact found using a similar language model. This is a bit disturbing and
raises some red flags but not in itself conclusive. Uniqueness does not quantitate
forgery, but it should be included in the overall skepticism.
Technical issues include its baked state and smoothed edges
among other elements. This is certainly substantive. Unique items I can agree
occur, however, unique processes to create unique items triggers alarms. I will
pose the question again, when has there occurred a firing of a clay relic to
create permanence as opposed to inscribing in stone? This problem poses some
rather large and looming questions.
I have not dealt with a large number of clay artifacts, so
let me pose another question to those who may be more informed. How many times
has soft clay been inscribed on both sides and then fired accidentally or
otherwise? This brings up some curious questions for me.
As to the testing, here is a quote from Dr. Eisenberg:
“Dating by thermoluminescence would not really damage the disc, as it would
require drilling a small hole or two on the edge that could afterward be
infilled so that it would be virtually invisible. I would be willing to pay for
the tests to be made by two independent laboratories, preferably one from France and the other from Germany.
Hopefully, the international publicity already ensuing from my article and the
forthcoming Phaistos
Disc Conference [beginning October 31st at the Society of Antiquaries in London] will pressure the
Greek authorities to finally test the disc.
At the present time I cannot even examine the disc in hand at the museum.
The director of the Herakleion
Museum e-mailed to me in
August 2007: ‘In reply to your e-mail of July 25, 2007, we would like to inform
you that unfortunately we are not able to satisfy your request to examine the
Phaistos disc and the inscribed Arkalochori axe. Specifically, the inscribed
Archaolochori axe is encased and stored, whereas the Phaistos disc because of
its uniqueness is considered as non movable…’ Of course, if the disc were to be
tested and it did turn out to be a forgery, it would be a great blow and an
embarrassment to the Greeks and to Crete and the museum, as the disk is one of
the greatest archaeological ‘finds’ of Crete and an important attraction not
only for scholars, but especially for tourists.”
Is the H. Museum really concerned about “tourists” here? I understand the
need to create funds to run these institutions, but when we put money ahead of
our scholarship we are treading on a slippery slope. I can understand
hesitation and extreme measures to protect our valuable artifacts, but
obstinance is not something that bodes well for scholarship.
I am not convinced that the disc is a fake. However, there is sufficient
doubt about its authenticity that requires resolution. If this cannot be
resolved then the disc will be relegated to a tourist only artifact and be
removed from any serious consideration in scholarship. This may satisfy the
museum but would still be a tragedy for the scholarly community. There is a conference
scheduled for the end of next month to debate this issue. We should see a great
deal more evidence presented and many of the details which are lacking at this
time. If anyone can obtain more specific details from Minerva magazine as to
Eisenberg’s specifics, I’d love to see them.
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Patrinos
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Posted: 08-Sep-2008 at 10:49 |
" Parthenon declared as fake by scholar"... Impressive quote,huh? If I make an article with this title, and declare myself a scholar, will I be famous? I agree that we have to doubt about everything, but to be proffesional "dissenters" is meaningless.
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Mercury_Dawn
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Posted: 08-Sep-2008 at 04:46 |
The Grave Creek Tablet almost certainly has to be a fake, I have never seen anything like that around here, and I've ducked my head into most of the caves around here, and no other archaeologist I know ever found anything remotely similar. I first learned about it as a kid volunteering for a dig in Ohio, and I must of scratched a rock in my square, cause when I unearthed it, it had a Nike Swoosh from ground that was 8000 years old! I swore up and down the Indians liked Nike, and he showed me a picture of the Grave Creek Tablet.
Now, why can I support this disk and not the grave creek tablet? Well, for starters, the mound building civilizations of my region, from Moundsville to Meadowcroft, have never shown any, and I repeat any, evidence of having a written language. Pictographs, you bet ya. However, thier trade relations didn't appear to extend more that 200 kilometers at most, and this is because of the Jade found. The communities had basic agriculture, nothing impressive, and may very well of developed the concept on their own, or as some theories suggest, brought it with them as Mesoamerican colonist from several thousand miles away. What enterprise, nobility, or complex warfare or economics system they had just wasn't enough in my mind to warrant the need to dabble in some kind of tangible record keeping, everything they needed was right there, in their immediate proximity.
Now take the Minoans. We know they engaged in Agriculture. We know they were traders. Ships are complex objects, as are palaces..... and a earthquake prone island is going to require repairs on buildings. They had a king, and therefore, likely something resembling a nobility. Now, as to their depth and diversity of religion, or concepts of taxation.... I am not going to speculate beyond saying they had SOMETHING, and that in regards to these two things, people tend to keep records...... especially the nobility, and really especially the king. Why? Cause some people are not honest, and some people like to prove they are honest if accuse of dishonesty.
Obviously, this disk can say anything, or could of been made for any reason. But to claim they didn't know HOW to bake a disk is some deep silliness. It appears to be a extraordinary object, and with extraordinary objects people take extraordinary measures in craftsmanship, display, and preservation. A good example would be a kings crown. Imagine if some futuristic anarchist commune unearthed one in the remains of some long abandoned and forgotten city like London? Would they be having this same conversation? I say, men of all ages were pretty inventive, but only a few cared to show it. Dig around in the ground long enough, and you'll find some pretty odd and yet amazing stuff that doesn't fit anyone's worldview. I think a 'baked' disk with known hieroglyphs isn't to fantastic, or a stretch on the technological capabilities of the Minoans. I mean, geeze, we discovered the people of Rhodes built Analog Computers during Roman Republic times, you have to allow for ingenuity and complexity in the ancient world.
As to testing this.... I remember that crescent shaped hole they took out of that Neaderthal bone, wasn't to thrilled about that.... had they waited a few years, they could of came up with a far less evasive method. If it's fragile, then let the preservation of this disk be our top concern. We can test it remotely someday, I'm sure of this.
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JDavis
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Posted: 07-Sep-2008 at 04:42 |
Originally posted by red clay
I haven't seen anything ironclad about Dr. Eisenberg's work or anything to separate it from any other speculative work. And considering modern political pressures I would have to question the good doctors motivations.
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I am confused about this statement. Could you clarify for me what motivation you are speaking? The artifact is in the hands of Greek authorities and this is a US scholar, so I am confused on this point.
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Nick Canuck
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Posted: 07-Sep-2008 at 00:51 |
I will undermine my own argument here by sharing Rodney Castleden's ( "Minoans: Life in Bronze Age Crete" Routledge, 1990) insights:
"The signs at first glance appear to be completely different from other scripts . . . are often for this reason explained away as a foreign curiosity. . . There are comparable signs cut into an offering table at Mallia, and engraved on a bronze axe . . . in the sacred cave of Arkalochori."
I'd like to see these other inscriptions to compare just how similar they are. I'm afraid I remain skeptical of the Phaistos Disk's authenticity. Which is a shame, because there is no denying just how outrageously "exotic" it is. You have to love those heads with the mohawk hair!
It has been suggested that these (and other Cretan scripts) may have a Luwian or early Syrian provenance, but I know nothing about them and can't comment.
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