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Why didnt Ancient Egypt dominate the Mediteranean?

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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why didnt Ancient Egypt dominate the Mediteranean?
    Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 06:12
As the preminent power their for a significan time, why not?
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 19:20
Egyptian always had formidable enemies to contest their power from all sides. In fact we are talking about a seriously wide range of time. And not always they were powerful enough to sustain expansionist politics.

But still I don't quite remember a time when they were the ultimate force in mid-east and Mediterranean.


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  Quote Darius of Parsa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 07:32
Egypt had goods coming in from across the Mediterranean, such as, Greek olives and wheat, Anatolian tin and copper, Palestinian jugs, and wood from Byblos. There is no reason to conquer a country you have good trade relations with.

    The Egyptians also had old weaponry in their arsenals. The mace was still widely used, instead of the axe for example up until the reign of Ramsses II.  The Hittites had these weapons and more. The Hittites had devastating war chariots, an obstacle to any Egyptian soldier in Syria and Palestine. It consisted of a wooden frame covered with leather, mounted on a wide axle with six-spoked wheels. Reliefs depict two or three riders on Hittite chariots, with the driver carrying a shield. At the Battle of Kadesh, the Hittites assembled 2,500 of these heavy chariots. The Hittites had a large advantage over the Egyptians who used bronze weapons. The Hittites were capable of using iron weapons as well as bronze.

Ancient Egypt constantly fought for Nubia and other lands in Africa. The Egyptians wanted to take control of Nubian raw materials such as gold. This led to many battles on the sands of what today is modern Sudan.

The Egyptians believed that Egypt was the center of the world and that their enemies came from the four points of the world (North, South, East, and West). Hittites to the North, the Nubians to the South, Asians to the Northeast, and to the West were the Libyans. The walls of Egypt were constantly bombarded by their enemies.

I will include more when I have the time.


Edited by Darius of Parsa - 18-Jun-2008 at 18:26
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 08:35
Libya for example.... it should have been relatively easy. Not to mention Cyprus, the Arab coast of the Red sea...
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 08:40
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

The Egyptians were also had old weaponry in their arsenals. The mace was still widely used, instead of the axe for example up until the reign of Ramsses II.  The Hittites had these weapons and more. The Hittites had devastating war chariots, an obstacle to any Egyptian soldier in Syria and Palestine. It consisted of a wooden frame covered with leather, mounted on a wide axle with six-spoked wheels. Reliefs depict two or three riders on Hittite chariots, with the driver carrying a shield. At the Battle of Kadesh, the Hittites assembled 2,500 of these heavy chariots. The Hittites had a large advantage over the Egyptians who used bronze weapons. The Hittites were capable of using iron weapons as well as bronze.
 
Good points.  It must be pointed out, however, that the war chariots were not all-terrain vehicles.  If the horses were spooked or tricked onto uneven ground, havoc could quickly ensue and the advantage of the weapon made ineffective.
 
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 16:16
Originally posted by Darius of Parsa

The Hittites had a large advantage over the Egyptians who used bronze weapons. The Hittites were capable of using iron weapons as well as bronze.


Ah, sorry I was careless. I see it now.

This is a common mistake about Hittites. They did not use iron(as we know today) in military. They stayed as a bronze age culture till their demise.

Yes, some researchers say that they used iron but it is mostly accepted that iron usage was very limited. Warriors preferred bronze weapons for several reasons.

For example a simple work by Mcqueen("Hittites") states that "using iron for military" is one of the common mistakes done regarding Hittites.

They were a real bronze age civilisation and their demise marked the start of the Iron Age already..

This is a complicated issue. Hittites were not completely ignorant of iron smithing. But the techniques weren't advanced. At least we don't have enough proof to think so.

It is safe to say this: Hittites were on a progress to start to use Iron but they have fallen before they could do so.

But Egypt wasn't different. They used Iron no less than Hittites in Bronze Age... So Iron isn't a reason for Egypt's weakness against Hittites. But yes, Chariots are.


Edited by Efraz - 21-Jun-2008 at 16:16
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 03:25
Several factors that come to mind:   geography; ancient egypt was based on the nile, mediterranean wasn't as important.  (they could simply march up the coast for the resources they needed, lebanon wood etc.)  Nubia was more valuable; gold, other minerals, more resources were spent on subduing that region.  Time period; naval technology was in its infancy, kind of difficult to conquer territory that requires a strong navy when for all intents and purposes ships can't sail out of sight of land.  If I remember correctly egypt didn't really even possess a naval force on the mediterranean until one of the last dynasties of the late period.  (30th dynasty I think) 
 
It depends on which time period you're referring to.  If the new kingdom, it seemed to be that the hittites were too strong to defeat.  Also what precisely you mean by dominate the mediterranean.  During a sizable portion of the new kingdom, Egypt dominated virtually the entire eastern seaboard.
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  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 05:30
Egyptians couldnt manage a large empire. Most of their wars ended in stalemate I believe.  They tried branching out a few times, namely into Asia or parts of Eastern Africa with various degree's of success though. Sea People from Southern Europe, and later Greeks and Romans they never managed to hold their own against.
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  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 00:40
To me, the Egyptians seemed to be an isolated people save diplomacy and trade with other people. From the beginning, the Egyptian saw the surrounding deserts as a security net and they never needed to expand. Rome expanded because it always expanded because it was always bordered by other people that Rome deemed as potential threats. The Romans would conquer them and then so on and so forth. Another reason is that Egyptians probably never had the manpower to do so because they were always working on monuments glorifying the leaders while retarding their strength.

Edited by Sun Tzu - 30-Jun-2008 at 00:47
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  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 15:49
The Egyptians didn't even turn to imperialism until their New Kingdom era. They didn't find a need to conquer the world, but they did know a world was out there. They were just content to settle around their Nile area. Also note, that if a soldier was killed out of Egypt there is no way, according to Ancient Eygtian culture, that they can reach the afterlife. At one poin Egypt commanded anywhere from modern day Khartoum in Sudan to, even at times, up to Damascus in Syria.
 
As for the Hittites, the Egyptians did oulast them. Not to mention they did gain some stunning victories against these militaristic people. However, it has been shown that when asked upon the pharaoh can go to what was then the most effective conscription method in the world at that time. Usually the Egyptians didn't have large armies, but they can amass large ones in such short a time due to their sophisticated drafting service, as seen at the Battle of Meggido.


Edited by andrew - 30-Jun-2008 at 15:55
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 10:55

Reiterating what Justinian wrote:

 

When Egypt could have dominated whoever they wanted - i.e. the Old Kingdom, dynasty 3-6, and Middle Kindom, dyn. 11-12 - they pretty much ignored the Med. From an ancient Egyptian perspective that was the backlot to their property. No one serious to fight there, i.e. no real threat, and not much to gain compared to the south. Their ambitions and resources were almost exclusively focused southwards towards the interior along the Nile.  As was perfectly rational, as that was where the real profits could be made, ´gold mostly, and where the most potent military threats came from.

 

Egyptian attention later gradually shifted towards the Med during the New Kingdom and Late period, partly in response to this region becoming more threatening than previously during the New Kingdom, and during the Late period becoming economically more important to Egypt than the south.

 

Pharanoic burial treasure up until the New Kingdom was typically African gold from Nubia, viz. Tuthankhamen's tomb. Beginning in the Late period Pharanoic burial treasure instead was dominated by silver coming from the north across the Med, viz. the royal tombs at Tanis.

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2008 at 11:40
There is only one realm that has ever dominated the Mediterranean and that is the Roman Republic. They were based in the center of the Mediterranean while the Egyptians were in the southeasternmost corner. They didn't have the geographical possibilites nor the manpower to do so. 
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2008 at 18:13
At one time the egyptians did rule as far as the third cataract and they contolled nubia and israel and their influence extended up into what is today turkey and the horn of africa and they occupied the sinai peninsula and libya at one time and they traded with the land of punt. The late egyptian navy was a force to reckoned with, and in the late period they had acsess to iron weaponry, an iron dagger was found in Tut's tomb if I remember corectly and they may have hired greek hopolites, Libyans, Sherdens, Hittites, Nubians and Philistines as mercenary's and in Rameses the great's time they may have had a sort of Knight the egyptians also had a wide variety of effective siege engines and siege tactics and according to a relief from the reign of thutmose they had a sort of "cataphract chariot" another reason why they were so dangerous was their chariots and missle troops. Here are some sights that may be helpful, wikipedia wasn't much help.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Count Belisarius - 11-Oct-2008 at 04:14


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  Quote Mercury_Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 01:29
The Egyptians recruited mercenaries from as far away as Sardinia, and there wasn't a market their coin wasn't accepted in..... but I do not see much evidence that they wanted to upset Minoan trade relations.... after a while, they even allowed the greeks (before the Alexander era) to establish a greek trading post on a island in the Nile Delta. I do remember watching a documentry on the Suez Canal that the Egyptians did tray to build a canal from the nile to the red sea. The romans also had trading posts in India...... so a obvious and valid inference can be made as to whether the Romans possibly just continued Egyptian trading policy into the Indian ocean commercially and not militarily. As aato the actual state of Egyptian trade in these areas, I do not know, but I'm guessing the Romans didn't introduce much novelty or invention into it. The Egyptians were a river empire, with a limiting almost feudal system of taxation and land organization to pull it's military ranks from, as well as the formentioned religious limitation. A water empire more concerned with maintaining it's cash flow/ social stratification than external empire. Only martial based Ka or external threats ever roused it out,a and these were surprisingly few aover the millenia, allowing them to maintain and retard, resting on what had always worked in a supreme conservatism that modernizing. Once committed, there was no looking back, only more chaos could happen if attempted.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2008 at 05:42
History of Egypt as a part of Africa act in the ancient Egyptian history. There is informative information about the Egyptian history in Gates of Egypt


Edited by adleer - 06-Oct-2008 at 05:45
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2010 at 14:38
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... Sorry I got confused?, a certain poster named "Darius of Parsa," Posted this;

"Egypt had goods coming in from across the Mediterranean, such as, Greek olives and wheat, Anatolian tin and copper, Palestinian jugs, and wood from Byblos. There is no reason to conquer a country you have good trade relations with."

Whoa! Mules! Whoa! Did this man/woman actually write the above? Especially these words "Greek olives and wheat!", did he/she actually consider that Egypt imported "wheat" from Greece?

Well, there are a lot of history books that need some revision? Laugh!

After all, we have all been taught that Egypt was the "Breadbasket" for the Roman Empire!

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 04-Jan-2010 at 14:40
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote drill_skill_800 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 18:06
Its true. Grain and barley were staple crops of Ancient Egypt, along with chickpeas and flax. It would be strange of them to import wheat from Greece.  
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 20:11
Originally posted by drill_skill_800

Its true. Grain and barley were staple crops of Ancient Egypt, along with chickpeas and flax. It would be strange of them to import wheat from Greece.  


And, until a certain period, Egypt it seems was one of the chief exporters of Papyrus, and Porphry, and Natron, amongst other things!

Maybe place names were changed to protect the innocent?   

It has also been reported in some sources, that Egyptians were also vegetarians! And, foreign kings had a bad habit of dying after eating Egyptian fish!

Actually, if you read "classic history", you would find that Egypt is said to have actually ruled the Mediteranean!

Now, just where are my sources?

Regards,

Edited by opuslola - 29-Mar-2010 at 20:15
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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  Quote drill_skill_800 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 21:35
Papyrus and Pottery, if I recall correctly.
Does Byblos still exist today?
 
Vegitarians? Didn't they raise cattle and hunt wild game? Fishing was a popular industry too. Was the Nile really that contaminated? If the fish were making the kings sick, then wouldn't the flood also contaminate to crops?
 
By "classic history" do you mean a traditionalist perspective? Like a history-is-written-by-the-victors sort of thing?
 
Cheers,
 
Katherine
 
 
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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2010 at 21:54
Perhaps those historians who mentioned that Egyptians were vegetarians, actually saw Egypt during the times that the entire area was mostly Coptic?

See; http://www.rahoorkhuit.net/devi/vagan/vegegypt.htmla

Still looking for my other sources!

Possibly it was mentioned as a part of Egypt in 3200 BCE?

SEE; http://www.jinxiboo.com/blog/2009/12/10/the-difference-between-vegetarian-and-vegan-and-a-history-of.html

"The vegetarian ideology has been around a long time. It was practiced around 3,200 BC in Egypt by certain groups who abstained from animal flesh, as they believed in the karmic idea of reincarnation."

Now, what seperates 3200 BCE from Christian times?

I'd bet, K., that with some good Googling, you will find the original source(s)?

Regards,



Edited by opuslola - 29-Mar-2010 at 22:01
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