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Documentray: Stolen Kosovo

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Documentray: Stolen Kosovo
    Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 08:40
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 08:51
Cainele latra, ursu merge.
 
Or we can even go with "ignorance is bliss" if you prefer.
 
 
Anyway...
 

GERMANY AND THE USA INSTIGATED THE WARS IN EX-YUGOSLAVIA

The masterminds of the Balkan slaughter reside in America and Germany

Wars are terrible and should be avoided whenever possible. Civil wars are worst of all wars. Usually there are no defined battlelines. There is no discipline. Neighbor fights a neighbor. Casualties among civilians are always high.

The main instigators of the civil wars in Yugoslavia come from the West. From Germany and the USA. They are, by far, the most responsible for the bloodshed and loss of lives, for disregard of international laws, for all misery the Yugoslav peoples suffered, for the mutilation and vivisection of the small Yugoslav state into 5 (five!) mini-states.

Once we deal with the architects of the disaster we can pay more attention to those who in the heat of the war did unthinkable. If there is justice in the "democratic" West (which there is NONE) then the leaders of Germany and America should be THE FIRST indicted and shipped to the International Tribunal at Hague. Let us hung Hitler first. Then we can deal with responsibility of an individual soldier.

And let us pretend that the history of the mankind started with the wars in (ex) Yugoslavia. Let us, for a moment, forget about who savagely bombed Vietnam and killed not 200,000 but 2 million people. (That was too long ago). Let us forget who broke all laws and rules of the international law and started an open HUNT of a president in nearby country, a member of the United Nations (like in recent case of Panama). Let us forget about the savage bombing which lasted for 100 days and killed some 150,000 people in Iraq (only months before the tragic wars in Yugoslavia started) and then imposed sanctions so inhumane to cause a slow, torturous death for more than *500,000* *children* (hey, CHILDREN!!!) in the same country.

Those in ex-Yugoslavia who lost their houses and fields, and anything they ever owned, those that lost limbs, or eyes, or children, those that lost a chance of a peaceful night for the rest of their lives, no matter their ethnic origin - Serbs, Muslims and Croats alike should demand that the Western masterminds of the catastrophe PAY for their deeds.

And that is the way, the only way, toward a better world, a world I may trust to let my children live in, a world where lives of other smaller, powerless peoples (like the lives of 24 million ex-Yugoslavs), cannot be treated as a pawn in a chess game.

Let us hunt down the monsters. In case of Germany, we could start with Mr. KLAUS KINKEL. In case of the USA we could start with Mr. Warren Zimmermann. They may not be the main culprits but they would, faced with death sentence, point finger at more important ones. I am sure they would point to the very top...

A recent book published in Germany ("Der Schatten krieger" = "A shadow warrior" by Erich Schmidt-Eenboom) talks about Mr. Kinkel, ex-director of BND (German secret police) and one of the top German politicians today. Mr Kinkel is still involved in the Bosnian civil war "solutions".

In chapter #9 ("Titos Erben in Bonn, Kinkels Vorstos auf den Balkan") the author explains how Germany started to PLAN dismantlement of Yugoslavia since early 1960's. Mr. Kinkel as top official of BND was the key person in plotting and organizing connections to chauvinist leadership of Communist Croatia, Mr. Ivan Stevan Krajacic, Tito's right hand man, and other Commi-Nazis...

With its fullhearted support (diplomatic, financial and military) Germany played the key role in dismantlement of Yugoslavia and early recognition of Croatia and Slovenia. Kohl, Genscher and others were involved.

In America the list of the top politicians guilty of instigating and prolonging the suffering of the Yugoslav people is long. America was the one to push Yugoslavia over the cliff.

(On November 5, 1990, a year before the civil wars in Yugoslavia have started, the US Congress passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriation Law 101-513. This bill, without a previous warning, cut all aid, trade, credits and loans to Yugoslavia and then pushed the World Bank and International Monetary Fond to do the same. The bill derecognized the country of Yugoslavia and announced that the U.S. will deal with the constituent republics instead. (The shape of a snake is visible before it is hatched).

Ever since, Western demo(n)-Nazis tried to "help" Yugoslavia. It is as if you had a headache and the neighbor, claiming to have good intentions, came with a hammer to "fix you". You say "wait, may be I need a doctor", but the neighbor starts to hit (and "fix") you anyhow. You complain that you feel worse now. The neighbor says that you need a blow to the other side of the head, also. Finally, you are not complaining any more. Is it because you realize that it is better in the situation, or, may be, you are simply - dead?...

Let us concentrate on a clear case of masterminding a genocide - the case of Mr. WARREN ZIMMERMANN the proud "last Ambassador to Yugoslavia as we used to know it".

This is how the United States, through Mr. Zimmermann, INSTIGATED the war in Bosnia:

After the wars in Slovenia and Croatia the fighting in Yugoslavia died out in January 1992. Mr. Vance's plan was signed and the two warring sides in Croatia were to be separated by UN troops. (We now see that America was only buying time to arm and equip Croatian fascists for the "final solution"). But Bosnia was calm. It was calm all the time despite the raging war in adjacent Croatia. It was clear, though, that the story of Croatia can repeat in Bosnia (actually, at that time when major countries of the West recognized Croatia and Slovenia, thus derecognizing Yugoslavia - it was, with that act - guaranteed!).

Influenced by the war the three constituent nations of Bosnia were more and more divided by the day. Under European Community auspices the leaders of the three groups, Mr Izetbegovic, for Muslimas, Karadzic for Bosnian Serbs and Boban for Croats, SIGNED the maps of division of Bosnia, in Lisbon, on February 23, 1992. Bosnia was to be a confederation divided into three ethnic regions. And THERE WOULD BE NO WAR!

Steps in Uncle Sam. (Eager to sell arms, the only working industry of the morally and otherwise dilapidated Evil Empire).

Giving a brief background, in a (rare) truthful article...


New York Times ("U.S. policymakers on Bosnia admit errors in opposing partition in 1992", by David Binder, August 29, 1993): (Quote:)

On February 23, 1992, in Lisbon, the three Bosnian leaders - Mr. Izetbegovic [for the Bosnian Muslims], Radovan Karadzic for the Bosnian Serbs and Mate Boban for the Bosnian Croats - endorsed a proposal that the republic be a confederation divided into three ethnic regions. Mr. Izetbegovic's acceptance of partition, which would have denied him and his Muslim party a dominant role(!) in the republic, shocked... United States policy makers...

"The embassy was for recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina from sometime in February on," Mr. Zimmermann said of his policy recommendation from Belgrade. "Meaning me."...

Immediately after Mr. Izetbegovic returned from Lisbon, Mr. Zimmermann called on him in Sarajevo... "He said he didn't like it," I told him, if he didn't like it, why sign it?"
(End quote)


With the American advise the Muslim reneged on his signature.

It was CLEAR what would happen. America ensured for war in Bosnia to commence.

From the same article (quote:)

Dr Karadzic ..."Bosnia and Herzegovina should not be recognized as a unitarian, independent entity." Serbs, he said, "want our own state."

On March 16, Dr. Karadzic warned of "a civil war between ethnic groups and religions with hundreds of thousands dead and hundreds of towns destroyed." He added so accurately, "After such a war we would have completely the same situation: three Bosnia-Herzegovinas, which we HAVE RIGHT NOW."

That day, the three Bosnian leaders met again in Sarajevo for another round of talks. Late the following night, they signed a new agreement to divide Bosnia into "three constituent units" based on ethnic criteria.

Dr. Karadzic was momentarily euphoric, calling it "a great day for Bosnia and Herzegovina." But within days Mr. Izetbegovic voiced strong reservations, saying the only reason he had signed was because the Europeans told him that he had to if he wanted to gain international recognition of his government.
(End quote)

Muslims could do what ever they damn pleased. They had full support from Washington - all the time.

The civil war in Bosnia started. The Western nations, lead by the U.S. went on with the recognition of (unitary) Bosnia (under minority - Muslim control, 44% of the total population), despite the opposition of the Christian majority (Serbs 34% and Croats 17%). To add insult to injury (American way to deal with people), the recognition was announced on April 6 - the anniversary of Hitler's savage bombing of Belgrade (which was Hitler's typical way of announcing a war to a country).

The crucial fact that America instigated the war in Bosnia was not much of interest for the American press. Nor is it for the new war criminal hunters. The fact was repeated once again in...


The Washington Times, a week later (September 7, 1993, page E3, "Bosnian policy at odds with history?" by Stefan Halper).

(Quote:)

Brcko, Bosnia. The face of Washington's policy in Bosnia is not found in Warren Christopher's expressions of eternal surprise, nor is it discovered in the oily explanations of Warren Zimmermann, the failed and now former American ambassador to Belgrade.

The face is found on a haunted 9-year-old girl whose father was machine-gunned in their front yard four months ago and who only now can meet a stranger without trauma. The face is found in small villages where houses have no roofs, the windows no glass and the gardens - bursting with roses and mums - are mined...

...The (Lisbon) agreement was scuttled by hapless Mr. Zimmermann, who encouraged the Muslim leader Alija Izetbegovic, then signatory to the Lisbon Agreement, to reverse himself and withdraw...
(End quote)


The issue about Mr. Zimmermann's hellish crime resurfaced two years later...Here is Mr. Jose Cutileiro's letter published in "The Economist".

(Mr. Cutileiro was the Secretary-General of the EC at the time of the Lisbon Agreement):


"Letters" part of The Economist, on 9-15 December, 1995.

(Quote:)

Pre-war Bosnia

Sir - In your article on Bosnia (November 25th), you say that in February 1992, before the war had started, Lord Carrington and I "drafted a constitution that would have turned the country into a confederation of Swiss-style cantons. The Muslims refused to accept what they considered to be the disintegration of Bosnia." NOT QUITE.

After several rounds of talks our "principles for future constitutional arrangements for Bosnia and Hercegovina" were *AGREED* *BY* *ALL* *THREE* *PARTIES* (Muslim, Serb and Croat) in Sarajevo on March 18th 1992) as the basis for future negotiations. These continued, *MAPS* *AND* *ALL*, until the summer, when the *MUSLIMS* RENEGED ON THE AGREEMENT. Had they not done so, the Bosnian question might have been settled earlier, with less loss of (mainly Muslim) life and land. To be fair, President Izetbegovic and his aides were ENCOURAGED TO SCUPPER THAT DEAL and to fight for a unitary Bosnian state by well-meaning outsiders who thought they knew better.

Jose Cutileiro,
Secretary-General,
Western European Union,
Brussels

(End quote)


There you have it! The case of the war criminal Mr. Warren Zimmermann is clear. Ship him to Hague! Only naive people can think that an ambassador of a country can decide about foreign policy, though. Nowhere in the world that is the case. As I said above let Mr. Zimmermann say who the real masterminds were. (The same model as in practice now: catch a Serbs soldier and hold him to dooms day in inhumane conditions until he points his finger right to the top of the Serbian leadership). Let Mr. Zimmermann spend couple of years in Hague on bread and water (like that Serb Tadic) until he points at the top Nazis in Washington.

Was it an (oooops!) "mistake" that Washington did? No way! What America (and Germany) wanted is clear from what they got: Germany got (for the first time in their history) "dragn nach osten" dream come true (an access to a warm sea - Adriatic). They got rid of unneeded NATO occupying troops (and America found a place, a new job for them). Germans found someone else to blame for genocide, ethnic cleansing and such (blame the Serbs for all wrong in the world!) The Serbs were punished for resisting "democratic" Germany in the two world wars. And someone else got to be divided into military zones (exactly four - just like Nazi Germany was at the end of WWII). Bosnia is divided that way. Plus (still Nazi in their soul) Germans got to be one of the occupying forces. (They got to guard Bihac Muslims for the sake of Nazi Croat allies).

America got to test new weaponry. Got to teach one of their infamous "lessons" to yet another disobedient nation. (The Serbs refused to convert to Islam so America can get oil from Saudi Arabia 10 cents cheaper). America instigated the civil wars in Yugoslavia (plus bombed to total annihilation one of the sides in the war) but paints itself as a "peace-loving, peace-keeping force". America moved ALL extra hardware it produced since the gulf war - into Bosnia and will now force international community (Japan?) to pay (to buy) the weaponry. (Good business isn't it?).

America instigated war but "brought" peace and thus has right to be the first one to send scavangers (vultures) to collect the damaged goods - half price. (The case of the secret mission of Mr. Brown and 60 thiefs). It is like a fireman who got in a local supermarket and liked something - but not the price. He sets the fire and then comes to extinguish it. Later he comes to collect the goods at the price he likes.

Let us punish the culprits. They are top American and German leadership, their obedient Western European colleagues, scores of western media bigots and bashers, then local Balkan leaders (Tudjman, Kucan, Izetbegovic, Milosevic), then local war-lords, then local Balkan criminals. All to be punished - IN THAT ORDER!!!

Petar Makara (Makarov)

PS: And when every argument is lost they say: "Yes - but might is right. Everyone is doing it."

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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 09:12

the author of that article is:

 Petar Makara lives in United States since 1984. He is a software scientist who worked for prestigious IBM Research Center "T.J. Watson" for more than 13 years. He is married and has two sons.

well at least he is scientist
 
other topics from his website:
 

"The Evil Empire Bulletin" is Mr. Makara's personal view of the current state of morality in the West. (See the note.)

 
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 12:21

By the way I forgot to tell you what I wrote meant: There was a farmer who sold a bull to a guy, the farmer told the guy that this is a bull and you can't milk it but the guy insisted on getting milk from the bull so it became a saying, I tell him it is a bull he insists on milking it.

Anyway, about Kosovo and misuse of autonomy, no Serb official ever cited misuse of autonomy as a reason for stripping the province of its autonomy, and even this argument doesn't count for the direct confrontational policies the Serb government used, kicking thousands of Albanian workers for no reason, forbidding the use of Albanian, blowing up mosques and forcing Albanian orthodox christians to worship in Serb churches. In any country when such a thing happens martial law is imposed in the affected areas which were limited to certain valleys in the south and center of Kosovo where Serbs were targeted. But Serbs directed the fire against all Albanians and yet Albanians never launched a full scale rebellion or mass terror attacks against the Serbs, on the contrary, Rugova launched a peaceful non-violence movement with daily peaceful protests turned by the Serb security machine into blood baths where hundreds died from 1989 till all out rebellion broke in 97.

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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 18:46
AL Jassas.
 
I have already given him the same answer,he wont have none of it,he is not here to debate,he is here to spread his propaganda.
 
The moderators should not allowe him to post so long cut & paste mesages,specially when they totally ignore the continuation of the debate,and are not conected to the topic,but simply open a new debate on a different subject.
 
 
Here is my post that he choose to ignore.My writing is highlited in black.
 
Originally posted by Carpathian Wolf

Yea basically there was no genocide in Kosovo against the Albanians and nobody but people with an agenda say this. Racak wasn't a massacre, all the forensic teams sent in agree on this. There was never a plan of genocide. Show me proof of this, an order, something!
 
I did not say there was Genocide and nobody ever claimed it,not the Albanians at least,what i said is there was a plan for genocide,and there was mass explusion of  people from there homes.And it was exactly the plan of genocide and the warning signs shown to the American congress that changed Americas perceptions on the conflict,it had till then been not so keen to suport the Albanians,as i told you,and you take no notice,Kosovo has once declared indipendence,but was not recognised by America or any other nation exept Albania.It was exactly Serbia behaviour that alarmed the international comunity and in a way forced them into action against Serbia,first diplomaticaly and only as the last option military action,you can only look at the fact that western media has always been and still is anti-Albanian and pro Serbian.
 
As for Racak massacre,it was and is,proven beyound resonable doubt.There was pictures and videos of the aftermath, showing children and old people masacred like in horror movies,by barbarians who had previously masacred civilians in Bosnia and Croatia.Mass Criminals who still find shelter in Serbia and have not faced justice yet.
 
As i told you,are you denying there was crimes comited by the Serbians???????Not even the Serbians deny this,not even Mladic and Karacic deny this.There opinion is only that they are heroes and they killed enemies.Thats the absurdity of it all.
 
KLA are terrorists and Milosevic did want to talk with them. The simple tiny fact that you didn't even know that the KLA first started attacking Serbian police and non Albanian civilians which made Milosevic attack them really just shows how skewed your perspective is.
 
Attacking police,is nothing new in countries were there are different ethnic groops,specially were is ethnic tension,but to use the actions of few people who attack the police to comit mass murder and the espulsion of 1.5 milon people (out of 1.9) burning there homes,killing and raping anything that moves on the way is hardly justifiable police action.It is planed Genocide.
on the words of Miloshevic : NOBODY WILL EVER BEAT YOU UP AGAIN: (said to a serbian nationalist gathering in Kosovo,meaning that Albanians were biting up the Serbs,but they should not worry beacuse soon,under Miloshevic no one would bit them up,at the time this sent alarm bells across Jugosllavia)
 
: NOT ONE ALBANIAN WILL REMAIN IN KOSOVO: (said at the time he was feeling the international pressure to stop his military activities against the unarmed Albanian population in Kosovo)
 
Thats if you had more doubts.
 
The autonomy was taken away by Milosevic because of how the Albanians in power were using their position. The same great ol echo of "Greater Albania" seems to be something intertwined in every fiber of all the Albanian politicians in power.
 
The autonomy was taken away by Miloshevic because of his nationalistic agenda,and because he wanted total control of an region that enjoyed the same rights as an republic in Yugoslavia.
 
It is this autonomy and much more that the Serbs are offering now,after they had to comit all the crimes and open the pandoras box,there is no way back now,there remains not a single family in Kosovo not afected by the atrocities of war,and not a single man who is not willing to go to war should Serbia think to go into another adventure in Kosovo.Albania also is in a much better position to help,and frankly i think that by force Serbia does not stand a chance.
 
Are long gone the times when Serbia controlled an Army that was created with the work of all former Yugoslav peoples,and used that army to opress them,and are long gone the times when it had enough petrol reserves to run that horrible military machine,it should now use water to run its old tanks.
As i told you,even after Miloshevic strped Kosovo of its autonomy,there was time of diplomacy,Albanians with Ibrahim Rugova exosted all posible diplomatic routes,but it seams that the nationalist in Serbia were hell bent on kicking Albanians out of their homes.
They suffered for that,of course they would,it is the unwriten law of the Balkans,that the warlord orders a thousend heads of the enemy after a thousend heads of its people have been cut,
 and he gets them.
 
 
 
 
I think Kosovo and Serbia should look into future intergration. The intergration of Kosovo into Serbia. This non sense has to stop. The KLA is already operationg in FYROM trying to stir the same crap up again. The Albanians in Pristina hold up signs of Greater Albania being part of Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, FYROM and Greece.
 
The only integration they have to look foward now is the Europian integration,and to become prosperous countries,and cooperating neighbours.There is no way back for Kosovo under Serbia,and Serbia knows this,and it will come to accept this sooner or latter.Unless of course we return to one war after another,and A thousend heads cut after one thousends head were cut.
 
There is no KLA operating now in FYROM,they are participants of an political procces now,and totally respect their Macedonian statehood.
 
There can not be such thing as an greater Albania,since not one single Albanian claims territory in places were Albanians dont live,unlike every other Balkan Greater Nation.
If there is to be a union,then it will be only by regions were Albanians are the predominant people living there,thats not Greater Albania,thats very Natural.I dont think that will happen because of diplomatic sensitivities in the Balkans,but it might happen the day when Serbians will be the ones to ask for an Albanian union to happen.Sounds crazy???
 
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  Quote vranakonti Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 03:21
 
As for your little threat, let's be serious here. Albania is dirt poor. The poorest country in europe by far. The Albanian military is a literal joke. Even in Romania we had some jokes about them. "How do you stop an Albanian tank? Shoot the guy pushing it." or "The communist nations at the Pact of Varsovia will be under going military manuvers. Albania is even going to participate with its one tank."
 
Oh man we are highlanders we are dirt,poor but proud,so don't worry for us.
As far as i remember we was the only country that had the courage to leave the Varsaw Pact,we forced the Russian fleet to leave Vlora,and we took for us half of that fleet.Im not going to reply to your provocations btw,i can quote hundred years old French sayings about your people,and not 10 years old jokes made by and for ignorants.
Carpathian you are in the wrong forum,and i hope,especially after your last posts that moderators will help you,in finding your way.
 
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 03:50
Carpathian wolf, I hid your posts because of the graphic nature of the photos and will be under review. apart from the massive and unnecessary cut and pastes i am getting a little tired of the tone of your posts. If your intentions are good i would trust you re-read the CoC and understand that; This is not a ethnic sledging forum. You can argue your position much better than what i am seeing.


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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 07:27
I'm not sorry for you. I'm making an honest statement. I didn't say that Albania was dirt poor in an insulting manner. I was simply speaking logistics. HEROI was making threats saying that heads were going to be cut off and this and that.
 
Go ahead what did the French say about the Romanians? ;) Please share. Via PM probably.
 
"Carpathian wolf, I hid your posts because of the graphic nature of the photos and will be under review."
 
Understood. I don't know how to make the images hidden. I'm not used to the format of the forum. You have my apology there, but I figure we are all grown up enough that it isn't that big of a deal. Maybe it is just me, i'm used to pictures like these after the research i've made. To be honest these are the more tame ones I could find.
 
As for the rest, I don't think the copy and pasting (alot of which wasn't just copied and pasted but written and researhced) I do think was needed for fully explaining Srebrenica. I don't believe any logical person reading that entire frame of evidence would believe that Srebrenica was anything other then what the Bosniak generals said it was: A political trap set up by Clinton and Izetbegovic. Perhaps my tone has been a bit harsh but it is a bit annoying when they won't read my posts but expect me to reply to every little BBC article which btw are poorly written even from an academic stand point of view.
 
I did ask however that those posts be made their own thread and opened for discussion. I rather focus on Kosovo here.
 
Again I apologize for my harshness but when people threaten another group saying that heads will be cut off, repeating unbacked statements out like 1.5 million Albanians being driven out of Kosovo by the Serbs and non sense like that without any proof, I think a bit of harshness is deserved. I admit I am guilty of being harsh, but HEROI is guilty of making an ethnic wide threat and racist demonization of people since he can not back up what he said. We already established between myself and es_bih that all but the Finish forensic team concluded by 2003 that there was no massacre in Racak. I also pointed out that in 2007 the Finish team reversed their first statement though es_bih is in denial over that. Yet HEROI keeps repeating that there were videos of the massacre and this and that. I have asked him two times to provide proof.
 
 
=================
 
 
 
 
 
As for everyone else concerning Srebrenica, what is your take on the fact that the Bosniak Generals I have quoted above themselves confirm what I have been saying?
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2008 at 23:19
I dont need to explain anything to you.You are not here for debate and explanations,you are here to spread hate and propaganda.And stop saing you are from Romania,because you are from Serbia.Or at least you are Serb,not Romanian.
 
As for Albanian Army,let me tell you that there is not another population in the world to have seen more battlefields then the Albanians.From every corner of Europe,Middle east and Africa ,Albanians have a well documented history of warfare.Nor are Albanians a people that have ever been subdued by any foreign ocupiers.
 
As for Albanian tanks during comunist times,then read About how this poor Albania made Hrushov the strong man shut up.How we kicked the Russians out of Adriatic to never return again,how we were the only country to have the guts to leave the Warsaw pact (after havin been a founding member of it).And the list is endless.There is not much you can say nither for Serbia or Romania to ever be anywhere near Albania mister paper wolf.
 
Even in this times,that by every Albanian are the worst times ever for the Albanian people,we are a country of 3.5 milion people with military missions in 4 Coutries around the world.Iraq,Aghganistan,Bosnia,and Chad.
 
And finally i sugest that you read a little about the History of Romania,about its royal family,and about its capital Bukuresht.Mister paper wolf,conections between Albanians and Romanians are  so back in time that even your gran gran gran dad was not even born then.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 12:08
And it seams also that you dont read other peoples posts before you answer.I did not threaten any comunity,nor did i ever use ofensive language towards any people,regardless where they from,unlike you.
 
Sain that a thousend heads are cut after a thousend heads have been cut,is a sentence for Balkan mentality and conflicts,and is not used by me,but i take it from bigger heads then yours and mine put together.
The history of Balkan conflict is made up of revenge attacs.Is a cycle of violence that must end,and Balkan countries should look foward with integration or face the same prospect of the Thousend Heads,this is what i said,that you choose to twist and turn.
 
I dont have to explain you the crimes of the Miloshevic's crazy blodthirsty killing and raping machine.
One must be an abnormal human being to suport such lowest form of human life.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 12:28
Oh, man, calm down... there's no gain in debating like this, only perhaps a ban, then you'll never have the chance to debate here again... now I'll get a ban for spam LOL Ermm


Edited by Illirac - 21-Jul-2008 at 12:28
For too long I've been parched of thirst and unable to quench it.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 00:58
HEROI i'm not going to get into some backward minded "who's country is greater" like you want me to. I frankly don't care, especially here. If you want to go make some thread about this macho super man vision you have about Albania, you can do so in a proper forum and we can discuss. But this isn't the place for it.
 
As for the royal family of Romania, they were Germans, and had relationships with just about every monarchy in europe from Spain to Russia. I have no interest in having some mythological bastardized version of rossler run through my mind when discussing Romania/Albania relations. It's moot and worst of all boring.
 
You did threaten, that is a threat and I hold no such mentality that you cut this many heads for that many or whatever. Even though you can put a price on people's lives, don't confuse the KLA type head collecting above with the norm in the Balkans. It wasn't ever such the case except for the backward minded animals that happened to get their hands on a sharp enough object.
 
 
As for Propaganda claim, funny, I posted the quotes of 2 Bosniak generals and 1 cabinet member of Alija izetbegovic all agreeing on what really happened in Srebrenica. Is that propaganda? How? It was their own words and no one has even bothered to read them.
 
The thing that bothers me the most about all of this is how ignorant people can be, they just agree with what side they want to agree with and to hell with the rest. I came into studying this topic with completely your opinion, Serbian rape camps, genocide, this and that, but I came quickly to the realization that this is simply NATO using the old Roman tactic of divide and conquor. But I don't know maybe the Serbs are just so that they can rape 500,000 women and hold the front against half a dozen major world powers at the same time.Ermm
 
 
 
But back to Kosovo, no more threats, no nothing of that sort. Let's discuss Kosovo. All the UN forensic teams stated that there was no genocide in Kosovo. Simple as that.
 
 
I have a question to the mods/admins, first why are those pictures pending? This is "the minefield" after all right? And everyone here is over 18? or at least if they come here they can sort of except this sort of thing as per the warnings for this sub section.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 18:47
And i have told about hundred times that noone is claiming there was genocide in Kosovo.
 
And i am telling you a hundred times ,that heads cut,is a simbolic way of expresing it,not that really on thousend heads were cut.
 
And it was you that first insulted my country,and  again i just mentioned facts,without ofending your country,werever you might be from.But i guess from Serbia.And i think is prety evident.
 
As for crimes commited by Miloshevic and Karadzic and Mladic etc.I dont need to talk to you about it,they are well documented.Only abnormal human beings would suport  such buchers.I am sorry you put yourself so down,instead of coming and having a normal conversation about the situation.
I dont think you have the desire to really have a constuctiv debate,therefore i am not talking to you on this topic any more.
 
 
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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  Quote Carpathian Wolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 18:54
You were making idle threats against Serbia and i stated the facts that Albania's current situation doesn't allow for it to have the military bravado you are expressing here, which is the only place where you really can.
 
I'm Romanian by birth and ethnicity. I've never been to Serbia or any other Balkan country so far in my life. I lived most of my life in America. If you want to say "your a serb your a serb" go ahead, just shows off your racist tedencies even more.
 
Yes they are well documented:
 

July 12, 2005

 

 

Researchers and Former UN Officials
Challenge Portrayal of Events at Srebrenica

 

NEW YORK--On the tenth anniversary of the capture of Srebrenica, two former senior UN officials, along with a group of journalists and academic researchers, cast serious doubt on what they say are “highly inflated casualty figures and a misleading portrayal of events by governments, non governmental organizations and major news organizations.”

 

On Monday afternoon, the Srebrenica Research Group, joined by former UN officials Phillip Corwin and Carlos Martins Branco, released conclusions from their 200 page report “Srebrenica and the Politics of War Crimes” which says that US policy undermined UN and European brokered peace settlements which could have ended the war in 1992 or 1993 to pursue a military solution which inevitably endangered safe zones.  By facilitating shipments of illegal weapons to Muslim forces, the US helped turn safe zones into staging areas for conflict and tripwires for NATO intervention. The group, which will soon release the full report, announced the following conclusions:

 

-- The premise that Serbian forces executed 7,000 to 8,000 people “was never a possibility,” according to former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, who has investigated the events that followed the capture of Srebrenica on site and through official records over many years, and whose findings are presented in the upcoming report of the Srebrenica Research Group.  He notes that by the first week of August 1995, 35,632 people had registered with the World Health Organization and Bosnian Government as displaced persons, survivors of Srebrenica, a figure, which was later referred to Amnesty International report and the report of the Dutch government. 

 

Rooper notes that at International Committee of the Red Cross and the New York Times reported that about 3000 Muslim soldiers who fought their way across Serb held territory to Muslim lines near Tuzla, were also survivors. The ICRC confirmed that these soldiers were redeployed by the Bosnian Army “without their families being informed.”  The figure of 3000 soldiers who survived was also confirmed by Muslim General Enver Hadzihasanovic who testified at the Hague. These figures make it clear that at least 38,000 Srebrenica residents survived out of a population of 40,000 before the capture of the enclave. Around 2000 Muslims who fled with the 28th division were killed, most by fighting, but also hundreds executed by paramilitary units and a mercenary group.

 

-- US policy in Bosnia endangered safe zones by opposing UN requests to provide enough personnel to demilitarize these enclaves and by facilitating illegal arms shipments to Muslim forces through C-130 Hercules night time deliveries to the Tuzla airport. The US Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) led this operation, which also welcomed Mujahadeen fighters allied with al-Qaeda, according Professor Cees Wiebes who wrote the intelligence section of the Dutch government report on Srebrenica. 

 

-- Despite signing the demilitarization agreement, Bosnian Muslim forces in Srebrenica were well armed and under orders to engage in provocations (“sabotage operations”) against Serbian forces. Muslim General Sefer Halilovic confirmed in his testimony at the Hague Tribunal that there were at least 5500 members of the Muslim 28th division in Srebrenica and that he had arranged at least eight helicopter loads of sophisticated weapons. He also testified that “in those days [immediately before the capture of Srebrenica], there were a large number of orders for sabotage operations from the safe areas.” This included a militarily meaningless attack on a strategically unimportant nearby Serb village of Visnica. The final operation was an attack on Serbian VRS units on the road south of Srebrenica, just days before the Serbs captured the nearly undefended town.

-- Instead of defending the town with a force of 5500 well armed soldiers, the Bosnian Army 28th Division was ordered to evacuate Srebrenica two days before a small force of 200 Bosnian Serb forces (according Muslim General Halilovic and the London Times) entered the nearly empty town on July 11. By provoking the Serbs to enter Srebrenica unopposed, Bosnian President hoped to trigger NATO intervention. British military analyst Tim Ripley writes that prior to its capture, Dutch troops “saw Bosnian troops escaping from Srebrenica move past their observation points, carrying brand new anti-tank weapons. This, and other similar reports made many UN officers and international journalists suspicious.” Former UN Deputy Director of UN Monitors, Carlos Martins Branco said “Muslim forces did not even try to take advantage of their heavy artillery, under control of the United Nations (UN) forces at a time in which they had every reason to do so … Military resistance would jeopardize the image of ‘victim’, which had been so carefully constructed, and which the Muslims considered vital to maintain.”

-- The International Criminal Tribunal on Yugoslavia (ICTY) whose staff had been largely appointed by Madeleine Albright, then US Ambassador to the United Nations, acknowledged political considerations when they issued indictments for genocide against Bosnian Serb leaders in on July 27, only three days after their chief investigator Hubert Wieland told the Daily Telegraph that in five days of interviews with scores among the 20,000 refugees gathered at the Tuzla airport: “We have not found anyone who saw with their own eyes an atrocity taking place.” Richard Holbrooke candidly told the BBC “I realized that the War Crimes Tribunal was a very valuable tool.  We used it to keep the two most wanted war criminals in Europe out of the Dayton process and we used it to justify everything that followed.”   What followed were trial proceedings in which witnesses who received leniency if they agreed to provide testimony sought by the Hague prosecution to justify indictments made for political reasons.  Thus, Momir Nikolic a prosecution witness in the Krstic trial was induced to say he supervised a massacre in Kravica until he admitted in cross examination that he not only lied by about supervising a massacre he never there and had no idea if one had occurred.

 

 

“The relentless focus on Srebrenica by US officials in particular, serves to divert attention from the fact that both before, and after its capture, the US provided logistical support for large Croatian military attacks on ethnic Serbian civilians living in UN Protected Zones in Western Slavonia and the Krajina regions,” said Professor Ed Herman of the University of Pennsylvania who has analyzed media coverage of wartime events as co-editor with Phil Hammond of Degraded Capability: the Media and the Kosovo Crisis and as co-author with Noam Chomsky of  Manufacturing Consent.

 The report of the Srebrenica Research Group quotes former NATO Deputy Commander General Charles Boyd who said that the Croatian attack on the Serbian enclave of Western Slavonia “appears to differ from Serbian actions around the UN safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa only in the degree of Western hand-wringing and CNN footage the latter have elicited.  Ethnic cleansing evokes condemnation only when it is committed by Serbs, not against them.”

Former UN Civilian Affairs Coordinator Phillip Coordinator, the senior UN civilian official in Bosnia at the time of the capture of Srebrenica read a statement noting the killing of non-combatants in the region “is a terrible crime and that perpetrators must be condemned” of such crimes regardless of the size of the crime and whether it is done by Serbs, Croats, or Muslims.  Corwin, who authored a book about his experience in Bosnia called Dubious Mandate and wrote a foreword to the report of the Srebrenica Research Group added:

“What happened in Srebrenica was not a single large massacre of Muslims by Serbs, but rather a series of very bloody attacks and counterattacks over a three-year period. Which reached a crescendo in July 1995.  Moreover it is likely the the number of Muslim dead was probably no more than the number of Serbs that had been killed in Srebrenica and its environs in the three preceding years by Naser Oric and his predatory gangs.  But my point here is not to argue equivalence, but to expose distortion.”

 “Because human rights are, by definition, universal, inflating the abuses by one side and minimizing such abuses by other factions in a brutal war serves neither truth nor reconciliation,” said filmmaker George Bogdanich, a member of the Srebrenica Research Group.

Over a three-year period, the Srebrenica Research Group did extensive research to prepare its report, interviewing forensic experts, UN officials, military intelligence analysts, experts in international law, and reviewed all major official reports on Srebrenica, including those by the UN, ICTY, Dutch government, Human Rights Watch, and writings by all major participants in the Bosnian war.

In addition to University of Pennsylvania Professor Ed Herman, the group includes former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, columnist George Szamuely, writer and filmmaker George Bogdanich, Dr. Philip Hammond, Dr. Milan Bulajic, Director of the Fund for Genocide Research, researchers David Peterson and Tim Fenton.

 

Such as that I read over today. If you want to discuss crimes we can. But so far you've just stated your opinion again and again. In any case Radovan and Mladic are irrelevant concerning Kosovo. So let's discuss Kosovo.

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