questions about people of mongolia

13th century Mongols were harsh warriors, and carved out a large empire. After the fragmentation, many stayed and assimilated into the nations they ruled, many went back to the steppes, others were annihilated by the civil war.

If you don't categorize Kereit, Naiman, Merkit, Jalair, Tatar, Ongut, Khitan, Oirat, Urianghai, Buriat, Bargo and other dominated tribes during the time of Chinggis Khan as the Mongols, today's Mongols surely aren't so similar to people of Mongol tribe during Chinggis Khan. Half or more of population in Mongolia during Chinggis Khaan were probably Turkic groups, and Tatar, Jalair, Oirat,  Buriat, Bargo, Khitan and others were Mongolic groups but even didn't be categorized as the Mongols before Chinggis Khan too.

Gentlemen discussions are encouraged and ethnic pride is all well and good. But lets keep the discussion civlised shall we. Right now it is been just that, but we all know that discussions on ethnicity can spiral out of control.

Hello Yungsiyebu_Uriankhai. I didn't understand your point of view about Tatars. You said:

"Half or more of population in Mongolia during Chinggis Khaan were probably Turkic groups, and Tatar, Jalair, Oirat, Buriat, Bargo, Khitan and others were Mongolic groups but even didn't be categorized as the Mongols before Chinggis Khan too." 

Do you believe old Tatars were Mongolic? If so, could you please explain about "old Tatars being Mongolian speaking"? Because old Turkic inscriptions in Mongolia, counted Tatars as a Turkic tribe.

Edited by gok_toruk - 16-Jun-2008 at 11:20

Could you please brings facts? According to Turkic inscriptions (Orkhon - Bilge Qaqan), Tatars were considered as Turkic. Unlike 'Khitay's, they were classified among Turkic tribes. '9 Qyrqiz' were also counted in Tatar confederation, in Turkic inscriptions. Tatars inhabited Tugla and Onon long before Mongolian tribes started to settle there.

(By the way, I found an English translation of Turkic inscriptions at www.culture.mn a few monthes ago ; but I can't reach the site now)

Could you please explain why Tatars were Mongolic?

Edited by gok_toruk - 17-Jun-2008 at 06:12

For sure, modern day Tatars are not related to old Tatars as modern day Tatars are Kiptchak-speaking people. 

Tatars, according to Turkic Inscriptions, were consisted of 30 tribes, but because only 9 tribes had political existance, so they were also called 9 Tatar. They were 9 Oghuz neighbors; in fact, 30Tatar and 9 Oghuz were almost always allies. 

Are shwei and Tatars are of the same group? Didn't Shiwei live somewhere close to Manchuria? Because according to Moslem historians, the Mongolic neighbors of Qyrqizes were "Furi"s who were different from Tatars. 

Bilge Khaghan, when talking to Turks, pointed to 30 Tatar, and 9 Oghuz, both:

"Otuz Tatar, toquz Oghuz beglery, buduny; bu sabymyn ögüty eshyt; qatyq'ty tyngla"

Also, Qyrqizes who were/are Turkic, were classified inside Tatar confederation, in the Turkic rule era in Mongolia.  

According to "Gardizi", Tatars were a subgroup of "Kimek" which itself is a Turkic tribe. And the tribes mentioned by Rashid-ud Din (Fazullah???), to be Tatar sub-groups, are Turkic names:

Tutukliut = Tutuqly (meaning, "of Tutuq origin") + "t",  which makes plural in Altaic (or relate the structure to the core word) . "Tutuq" was the title of Kimeks' Khans. 

Alji = or as a derivative form, "aliq" 

Is it "Kiun" or "Kuni"? Because "quni" is a Turkic TRIBE, and not only a name.

I'm not sure about "Burqui". Is it "Burqu" or "Burqui"? "Burqu" exists in Turkic (maybe also in Mongolian, huh?). It's also the name of the place where Gok Turks had war with Tatar-Oghuz army.

About multi-ethnicity of Tatars... because the name "Tatar" is a general name, meaning "he who dwells in steppe". In this case, so all Mongols, Turks, Tunguses could be called Tatars.

Edited by gok_toruk - 21-Jun-2008 at 09:41

Kumarajiwa,

Originally posted by kumarajiwa in fact, mongols are similar to chinese people. but they like to be very different. they even want to say they are European looking when they look like chinese. very funny people. i disagree with the idea that they are hospitable people. i think you are still a wanna-be tengriist!

We call Manchu as Golden Tatars.
The Tatars you ppl talking about are Black Tatars =Khara Tatar
Ofcourse they looked like us = Ofcourse they will steal a women.
Ofcourse we will steal a women from them!

Speaking of mixed blood :
Mixed one is called "Erliiz" in Mongolia.
You can say "Mongol Russian Erliiz", "Hyatad(=Chinese) Mongol Erliiz"...
But you can`t say "Kazak Mongol Erliiz" Instead we use "Hasag Mongol"
It is kinda strange to say "Tuva Mongol Erliiz"

I can proudly say I`m pure Mongol. But most Mongols who surround me has black hair like Chinese. I have brown hair. My tribe is "Bor Jigin"=Brown warrior/if Jigin is like Jigit=warrior/ not "Bor Jigon".
My wife is Kharchin(part of Manchu union). We both are not so blonde. But our daughter :

I can proudly say there was no Russians or Buryat Mongols in my family!

They are quite blonde!



Edited by Bor Chono - 18-Sep-2008 at 07:40