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Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire

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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Founder of Ching(淸 Chung/Qing) empire
    Posted: 01-Jun-2008 at 15:21

Picture of Aisingioro  Nurhachi, founder of Ching (Chung/Qing)



Edited by Chiwoo - 14-Jun-2008 at 14:44
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:06
First of all, this empire is primarily known as Qing. It was a Manchu dynasty of China and not Korean. Please don't confuse the forum members by this very extravagant and bizarre interpretation of the historical facts. Not every great person in the East Asian history was Korean.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:21
As a decendent of Manchu Plain Red Banner, i strongly object this kind of Korean chauvenism. We are manchu and we have absolutely nothing to do with the Koreans whatsoever, you have no rights to decide what/who we are.  So please post your stupid comment somewhere else, and i would very much like to see him banned from AE.
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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:24
Originally posted by Sarmat12

First of all, this empire is primarily known as Qing. It was a Manchu dynasty of China and not Korean. Please don't confuse the forum members by this very extravagant and bizarre interpretation of the historical facts. Not every great person in the East Asian history was Korean.
 
You don't know the truth.
If you were not Korean nor the People of Qing how could you know the relationship between the two people.
have you studied Qing history with its own history books, not by Han chinese nor Western scholars?
By the way, Chung is Korean sound for Qing.
You claim Chung is dynasty of manchu. Right. I didn't deny it was dynasty of Manchu.
Manchu deserve to celebrate Qing dynasty too.
And if you value Chung dynasty as part of manchu you shoud call it Ching, not Qing.
Qing : han chinese sound. Ching : manchurian sound.
 
 
Only i hope you don't remove this post.
 
 
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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:26
Originally posted by Siege Tower

As a decendent of Manchu Plain Red Banner, i strongly object this kind of Korean chauvenism. We are manchu and we have absolutely nothing to do with the Koreans whatsoever, you have no rights to decide what/who we are.  So please post your stupid comment somewhere else, and i would very much like to see him banned from AE.
 
have you studied your own history by your own people with your own books, not by Han Chinese teachers with Han-chinese version of books.
I am sorry for all the manchu who deny their origin.
 
Your claiming your history started from Kim (Jin) dynasty make you you were Barbarians with no origin.
 
We don't care about today's Manchu and we are not relating Koreans to Manchu.
We respect only one truth that Kim Nurhachi is Koryeo man, anctually a Shilla royal family member, ant the dynasties were built by Koguryeo and Balhae people.
 


Edited by Chiwoo - 02-Jun-2008 at 00:34
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:34
Mind you that you are not the first one i ve met with such absurd theory, but what's unique about your stupid theory is that you considered Qing the so call "Post-Shilla", and i find that very insulting.

have you studied Qing history with its own history books, not by Han chinese nor Western scholars?

many of the scholars in my banners as well as many other banners, were involved in organizing the  history of Qing so i find it quiet absurd to question the validity of it, and yes, i consider my self as  a semi-expert on Qing history.

You don't know the truth


Okay, enlighten me with your so called "truth".

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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:41
Your claiming your history started from Kim (Jin) dynasty make you you were Barbarians with no origin.

Mind you that the language we Manchus speaking is of Tungusic origin as opposed to Korean's Altaic origin, so i don t know why you would even bother to make connecting between the Korean pronounciation and the Chinese pernounciation.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 00:48

Chiwoo, do you think that relying on Korean ethnocentric historical sources makes you knowledge "better" ? It just makes it very biased.

 And I think the opinion of a Manchu person i.e. Siege Tower about your "theory" is very representative here.

Let Manchus alone they don't want to be Koreans.

Also this forum's official language is English and this dynasty is primarily known as "Qing" for English speakers.  Nobody will undersand what you mean by Chung, unless he can read Chinese characters.
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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 01:05
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Your claiming your history started from Kim (Jin) dynasty make you you were Barbarians with no origin.

Mind you that the language we Manchus speaking is of Tungusic origin as opposed to Korean's Altaic origin, so i don t know why you would even bother to make connecting between the Korean pronounciation and the Chinese pernounciation.
 
??
I just said "Chung" Korean sound for "Qing" and "Ching" is Manchu sound for "Qing"
Don't you call Qing "Ching" in your own language? If not I was wrong but every Manchu seemed to understand what I meant when I call it "Ching"
 
I say again, I am not trying to link you Manchus to today's Koreans . 
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 01:21
Dear Chiwoo.
 
Your posts actually made me more curious about you than the subject at hand.  So I looked up your personal profile and you've listed yourself as 71 year old male.  I'm assuming you are Korean, so in that case, 'Halahbeoji, Annyunghaseyo?'.
 
Even though South Korea is one of the most internet hooked nation in the world, I would assume it's not usual for a 71 year old to write about Chinese in English on a history internet forum.  So if you are really who you say you are(which I have no evidence to think otherwise), I have much respect for you whether what you are saying is right or wrong. 
 
I've met many Koreans claiming similar theories in internet, several in this site alone.   Sometimes I suspect they are not even Koreans at all but other nationalities trying to make Koreans look bad by claiming something ridiculous and very nationalistic.  But I'm not gonna claim all those are fake.  I think some of them genuinely believe what they are claiming.  As a Korean myself, I sometimes want to believe what they are claiming.  But just because I want to believe in something doesn't make it true.  And it's sure a hard sell for other people.
 
I somehow believe that you are 71 year old Korean man and you've read some history books about China or in Chinese writing since that is pretty common for older educated Korean men.   And I do believe you have something valid to say, possibly something to teach us.  I hope. But you are doing it with a 40 sec Youtube clip, semantics on Qing and Chung, and accusing other respected forumers of ignorance.  I suppose if you met a Japanese guy with 40 sec Youtube clip, semantics on few similar Korean and Japanese words and told you that you don't know much because you haven't read certain Japanese history books while he's claiming Ancient Shilla was actually a Japanese kingdom or a vassel?  You wouldn't give him much time to convey his theory, would you?  Even if what you are claiming is right you are not going to convince too many people that way.  All you do is isolating yourself.
 
Edit.
 
Whoops, Sorry I prematurely posted this post. I'm not quite done yet.
 
If you really believe in what you claim, and you think it's something we all should learn from you.  You must present it in more serious scholastic manner.  This is more true if what you are claiming is further away from the mainstream view.  You are asking people to be open minded beyond their belief.  You must be willing to be open minded yourself.  Even if what you are saying is true based on what you've read, surely you couldn't have read everything on the subject.  So please, compose yourself show us the wisdom of old Korean man. 
 
I apologize if I was disrespectful to in anyway.  I've been in U.S. too long.LOL  Otherwise, welcome to the forum and hope we can share some knowledge, not just pride.
 
                                                            Sincerely     
                                                                                      King Kang  
       


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 02-Jun-2008 at 01:50
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 01:31
Picture of Kim Nurhachi, founder of Post-Shilla Empire

i think it is very clear that you are trying to say that Manchus are Koreans.

I just said "Chung" Korean sound for "Qing" and "Ching" is Manchu sound for "Qing"
Don't you call Qing "Ching" in your own language? If not I was wrong but every Manchu seemed to understand what I meant when I call it "Ching"

That is indeed correct, but i failed to see why it is so important, chances are that the Korean pronounciation was originated from the Manchu pronounciation.



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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 01:49
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Picture of Kim Nurhachi, founder of Post-Shilla Empire

i think it is very clear that you are trying to say that Manchus are Koreans.

I just said "Chung" Korean sound for "Qing" and "Ching" is Manchu sound for "Qing"
Don't you call Qing "Ching" in your own language? If not I was wrong but every Manchu seemed to understand what I meant when I call it "Ching"

That is indeed correct, but i failed to see why it is so important, chances are that the Korean pronounciation was originated from the Manchu pronounciation.
 
Ok then, I will edit my post.
You don't want to hear this from any Korean but actually according to Korean records from Joseon dynasty, both royal courts conversed with each other without a interpreter.
 
Not that i am here to bother any Qing dynasty descendants.
I just guess that many of Manchu people are so sensitive when Koreans celebrate Qing empire as part of Korean history.
We both deserve to celebrate the Empire as it is history of us both, Korean and Manchu.
 
 
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 02:33
You don't want to hear this from any Korean but actually according to Korean records from Joseon dynasty, both royal courts conversed with each other without a interpreter.

I honestly have never heard of that, but i guess it's very much possible for the two different cultures who spoke two entirely different languages and have different writings, to communicate using Chinese, which to my understanding, was very familiar to both cultures.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 03:32
Originally posted by Chiwoo

You don't want to hear this from any Korean but actually according to Korean records from Joseon dynasty, both royal courts conversed with each other without a interpreter.
 
Apparently, they conversed in Chinese, the language which had the official status at both courts.
 
Originally posted by Chiwoo

Not that i am here to bother any Qing dynasty descendants.
I just guess that many of Manchu people are so sensitive when Koreans celebrate Qing empire as part of Korean history.
We both deserve to celebrate the Empire as it is history of us both, Korean and Manchu.
 
I recently watched a Korean historical fiction movie "Heaven's soldiers." Which in fact is very Korean.
 
 
It clearly shows how Koreans view their "brothers" Manchus. In the movie, Jurchens (i.e. Manchu's ancestors) are blood thursty, primitive savages whose only desire is to kill and loot poor Koreans with whom they apparently have nothing in common (the dialogues in Jurchen language are given with Korean subtitles BTW Smile).
 
It seems to me that very few people if any in Korea can seriously think of "celebrating Qing empire as part of Korean history."
 
 
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  Quote Chiwoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 05:32
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by Chiwoo

You don't want to hear this from any Korean but actually according to Korean records from Joseon dynasty, both royal courts conversed with each other without a interpreter.
 
Apparently, they conversed in Chinese, the language which had the official status at both courts.
 
Originally posted by Chiwoo

Not that i am here to bother any Qing dynasty descendants.
I just guess that many of Manchu people are so sensitive when Koreans celebrate Qing empire as part of Korean history.
We both deserve to celebrate the Empire as it is history of us both, Korean and Manchu.
 
I recently watched a Korean historical fiction movie "Heaven's soldiers." Which in fact is very Korean.
 
 
It clearly shows how Koreans view their "brothers" Manchus. In the movie, Jurchens (i.e. Manchu's ancestors) are blood thursty, primitive savages whose only desire is to kill and loot poor Koreans with whom they apparently have nothing in common (the dialogues in Jurchen language are given with Korean subtitles BTW Smile).
 
It seems to me that very few people if any in Korea can seriously think of "celebrating Qing empire as part of Korean history."
  
It seemed to be true that Joseon used to describe Jurchen brutal. At that time the two people already lived separately from each other and felt kind of hostility toward each other.
But as you in history and even in modern days (between South Korea and North Korea), that thing always happens among the same peoples.
The important thing is the historical fact  that the founder of the two Empires were built by direct discendants of Shilla and the people in the dynasties were descendants of Koguryeo and Balhae. 
"Jurchen" is not even the ancient term. The term generated after the fall of Koguryeo and Balhae, and the northern people, during Koguryeo, were called "Horse tribe", which became part of Jurchen .
Between Qing and Josen there were a few times of battles at the beginning of establishing Kim and Qing dynasty but the Emperors were still worshiping Joseon as their mother country.
If you met any descendant of Qing royal family you would learn what the relationship was like between the two dynasties during the era of Joseon and Qing.  Koreans value Kim and Qing as precious as any other Korean dynasty.
 
 


Edited by Chiwoo - 02-Jun-2008 at 05:43
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  Quote King Kang of Mu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 05:51

I doubt that Joseon court spoke Chinese either, well not without interpreters.  I would assume most of communication was done through convoys and official letters which would have been undoubtedly in Chinese letters.

'Heaven's Soldiers'.  Interesting movie nonetheless.  But I did notice they portrayed the Manchus(Jurchens) as savage barbarians.  Traditionally Koreans call Manchus or nomadic tribes from northern borders in general as 'O Rang Kae' which has similar connotation.  I'm sorry. I'm not saying I agree with it.  I'm just stating what I see as historical/cultural fact.

Anyway if there were any Koreans who celebrate Qing as part of Korean history, that is news to this Korean.  I always thought Joseon always allied herself with Ming in Ming/Qing conflict. 

But I do understand there is a tension between involving China's Northeast Historical Project and Korean historians reaction to it.  I try to understand from both point of view.  I understand PRC's need to centralize all her minority groups as she develops into a global superpower.  Whether some of its practices are right or wrong it seems natural to me.  I also understand Koreans' reaction to it.  That also seems natural to me.  Perhaps Kokuryeo issue is the main focal point.  But we do have few threads on the issue and though I didn't participate any serious conversation in those threads, I have learned a lot from reading you guys, especially the Charioteer.  Whether I agree with him or not I envy his passion for the history of his country.  

I can only read few Chinese letters.   Since even most of if not all major Korean history records are written in Chinese, I think it is crucial to understand Chinese to attain deeper understanding of what was written originally from both side.  One of the main reason I tried to stay away from the arguments. 
 
I also know that China has the most extensive and continuous historical records of herself more than any other nation/culture/civilization.  In Korea, many invasions, especially during the Japanese occupation many historical records were destroyed.  So when somebody else wants to tweak with their history even if its they are doing it in their own territory, Koreans have very sensitive reaction to it.  Once again both positions seem natural to me.
 
But to say, Qing was part of Korean history or Confucius was Korean or DongYi and Shandong people were Koreans kind of claims seems to tweak their own traditional beliefs/records.  Once again as a Korean I would love to see a new discovery or new analysis of existing records that confirms all these fantastic and nationalistic claims.  But I have seen one that's convincing enough. 
 
I've read few excerpts from 'HwanDanGogi' in English.  I've read few articles and books on Kokuyeo and Balhae(Bohai).  I've seen few YouTube videos about Hwankuk or Baedalkuk.  And I do think some practices of NE Historical Project are questionable to say the least.  But same time I don't think Koreans should react to that by claiming something only they can seem to decipher. 
 
Unless anyone else can present such claims in more intelligently prepared scholastic way, we have seen enough, least I have.   Otherwise it's only hurting the relationship between two nations without any scholastic gain for either side.   As none history major(though this forum has made me rethinking it), I'm always interested so called pseudo-history.  I love when people can overturn the conventional wisdom.  But that's not just gonna fall on your lap.  It takes that much more work and dedication to swim against the current.
 
For this Korean, I always consider any Chinese, Manchus, Mongols, SE Asians as my Asian brothers and sisters.
 
PS.  Hey Samart12 have you seen 'The Four Gods'?  It's South Korean historic TV drama about Koguryeo and Dangun myth.  It's lot more mythical than 'Jumong'.  I've watched only few episodes so far.   It's entertaining at least, more like 'Lord of the Ring' kinda way.  Anyway here is the first segment.
   


Edited by King Kang of Mu - 02-Jun-2008 at 05:58
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 18:04
Thanks for the introduction King. I'm definetely very interested in watching this movie. Smile
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2008 at 23:03
For this Korean, I always consider any Chinese, Manchus, Mongols, SE Asians as my Asian brothers and sisters.

That's the spirit, brother.Cheers

I would just like to point out that the Manchus are semi-nomadic, and in fact most of manchu population that settled near Korean were forest dewllers, so i don t the Koreans would refer to  the Manchus as Nomadic.




Edited by Siege Tower - 03-Jun-2008 at 02:40
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  Quote Pierrewatteau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 05:32
Anyone who has taken history classes in college would know that the "claims" made in this thread by Chiwoo are mostly baseless and are not supported by mainstream academic views. 
 
However, Chiwoo's statements on these are particularly puzzling and makes no sense at all:
And if you value Chung dynasty as part of manchu you shoud call it Ching, not Qing.
Qing : han chinese sound. Ching : manchurian sound.
?
I just said "Chung" Korean sound for "Qing" and "Ching" is Manchu sound for "Qing"
Don't you call Qing "Ching" in your own language? If not I was wrong but every Manchu seemed to understand what I meant when I call it "Ching"
 
LOL, isn't "Ching" and "Qing" pronunced the same way?  Moreover, "Ching" is the older (such as Wade-Gile , Postal, Yale..) romanization of this word, and if you flip threw sources from the 19th century and early 20th century, the last dynasty of China was written as "Ching dynasty" in English (see older English-language encyclopedias), while Qing is the modern pinyin romanization.   And they both have the same pronunciation in mandarin Chinese.  Ching and Qing are simply different ways of romanization, just as there are several different kinds of romanization for Korean language. 


Edited by Pierrewatteau - 03-Jun-2008 at 08:03
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 07:01
I thought Chiwoo meant that Ching is how it's pronounced in Manchu language.
 
But anyway, the best way to refer to this dynasty is Qing.
 
It's the same if some Chinese person would say smth. like "let us now discuss the history of Chaoxian." Smile
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