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How far is English Germanic? (and other issues)

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How far is English Germanic? (and other issues)
    Posted: 31-May-2008 at 17:57
(This is a spinoff from the Saxons and Scythians thread in the Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran, since it's become all about linguistics and has nothing to do with those areas. So relevant earlier material appears there, although I'm trying to set this up as an independent topic.)
 
If you look at any standard classification of languages and their development you will, traditionally, see a strictly hierarchical structure, identical to the kind of hierarchical structure you see describing the speciation of living organisms.

In that picture, languages only differentiate through fission: one group of speakers of a given language develops different pronunciation or grammatical habits from others, with the result that the language group splits into two or more. Hence a tree with twigs at the bottom. English is traditionally one of those twigs (sometimes with twiglets bramching off from it) and it's firmly attached along with other twigs to a branch labelled 'Western Germanic', which in its turn as you go up the tree turns out to be a branch of the group 'Germanic'.

And so on.

It's popular because it fits nicely with things like Grimm's Law and the famous consonantal shifts in Indo-European.

However It's a model that only allows one form of speciation. And that's OK for the animal world, because by definition species once formed cannot interbreed with other species.

Using it to classify languages however can be very misleading. Rumanian for instance is a twig off the Italic branch and so is French. However French (and Spanish, Portuguese, and even Italian) have heavily simplified grammars and syntax compared to Romanian. That brings it closer to the languages classified as 'West Germanic', in particular to English, though to get from French to English via the tree alone takes the same number of steps as going from Romanian to English, which is kind of silly.

In fact, depending on how you draw the tree, Romanian may end up looking closer to English than French is, which would be ridiculous.

So something is missing from the diagram, something that would indicate the major similarities that English has to French in grammar, syntax (in particular word order) and vocabulary (not of modern neologisms or post-Renaissance intellectual imports, but basic elements of converse like, for example, 'Please' and 'Excuse me' and 'you' instead of 'thou' paralleling 'vous' instead of 'tu'. Even though English, on balance, is probably more similar to the Germanic group than it is to the Romance group.

And of course it should show the similarities that exist between other languages that don't follow the hierarchical relationship pattern, including relationships between English and the Celtic languages, like the progressive verb tenses and the inverted sentence question ('you were there, weren't you', 'he was driving, wasn't he?).

To simply say, plumping, that 'English is Germanic' hides these truths and they need to be revealed.

It's interesting that even writers who recognise this will then go on to ignore it and stick with the tree model. For instance in wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_families_and_languages
the writer says


The concept of language families is based on the assumption that over time languages gradually diverge into dialects and then into new languages. However, linguistic ancestry is less clear-cut than biological ancestry, because there are extreme cases of languages mixing due to language contact in conquest or trade, whereas biological species normally don't interbreed. In the formation of creole languages and other types of mixed languages, there may be no one ancestor of a given language.

and then goes on to describe how you find the one ancestor of two or more languages. I guess because that's easy and well-worked over, and leads to neat diagrams.

More recently it's because a lot of timeand effort has gone into using numerical taxonomy methods to 'prove' the tree model. This has come relatively late into linguistics compared to biology and economics (where I did my research into it). But the 'scientific' authority numerical taxonomy lends to conclusions overlooks, as in other fields has been discovered before, that it depends entirely on subjective choices of elements like the data to analyse and the clustering methods to be used (co-ordinates, metrics).

As an example take http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/~kjohnson/quantitative/historical/historical.pdf and go to pages 180-181, where clustering is exemplified for a number of I-E languages based on lexical similarity. The author happily points out that "With this list of words we can calculate the similarity of Spanish, Portuguese, French and Italian as 100% because all five of the words are cognates with each other in these languages" but manages NOT to point out that, if you look at English, only two of the words are cognate to any other I-E language, none to German itself, one to Dutch and Swedish, and the last to the Romance group.

Of course this is a very simplified basic example of the technique. On a larger scale things would be different. But the principle would remain: an awful lot depends on the words you choose, and what grammatical and syntactical and other elements you include. (And how you use the numerical data to calculate distance between languages and already calculated families.)

A couple of other wikipedia notes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method#Problems_with_the_Tree_Model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Schmidt_%28linguist%29

And an example of someone's attempt to portray cross linkages, from http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/tandy/nanterre-talk.ppt#3

 
 
 


 

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Chilbudios View Drop Down
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 19:20
Originally posted by gcle2003

Using it to classify languages however can be very misleading. Rumanian for instance is a twig off the Italic branch and so is French. However French (and Spanish, Portuguese, and even Italian) have heavily simplified grammars and syntax compared to Romanian. That brings it closer to the languages classified as 'West Germanic', in particular to English, though to get from French to English via the tree alone takes the same number of steps as going from Romanian to English, which is kind of silly.
Languages are not usually grouped in "simple languages" vs "complex languages" (though, after eliminating the vagueness these terms inherently have, it may be proposed for a taxonomy, however check the conclusion of this post, too), therefore I don't believe Italian will ever be classified as "West Germanic". I think before speaking how much a language is or is not Germanic, we must find out what Germanic really means. Certainly, we won't find an universal definition, but we will find several definitions ultimately agreeing, converging on some important aspects. I'll start with two links (if you need, I'll search for more serious and scholarly materials), trying to picture what a Germanic language is:
 
As it can be seen "having a simple grammar and syntax" (or the opposite of it) is not enounced as a criterion for "Germanicity".  The less rigid definitions of Germanic languages require them to be IE languages which went through the first Germanic shift as enounced by Grimm's law. The more rigid ones require several extra features - like having strong and weak verbs or supplementary sound changes (also in vowels, e.g. a > o as in the PIE *mater- giving the PGmc *mothær)
 
The linguistic trees can be differently pictured, according to what they are supposed to represent. The typical Germanic languages tree where English is a leaf of the West Germanic branch shows the historical evolution proposed by linguists, which also follows some of the considered important features - those which make English to be a Germanic language. Arguably one could paint a different tree and place English in Celtic tree based on several loanwords or whatever other features the Germanic languages and particularly English got from Celtic. However this latter tree, though probably a legitimate representation to follow the history of some Celtic features, won't define English as a Celtic language.
 
Of course, one would counter-argue, well, these definitions are eventually conventional. Why do we call English Germanic and not Romance (or Altaic based on whatever loanwords or who knows what common features we can identify between these languages)? True, but so are all definitions. What is more important is to be operational, to be meaningful, to lead - in Lakatos' terms - to a progressive research.


Edited by Chilbudios - 31-May-2008 at 19:35
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 15:52
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Originally posted by gcle2003

Using it to classify languages however can be very misleading. Rumanian for instance is a twig off the Italic branch and so is French. However French (and Spanish, Portuguese, and even Italian) have heavily simplified grammars and syntax compared to Romanian. That brings it closer to the languages classified as 'West Germanic', in particular to English, though to get from French to English via the tree alone takes the same number of steps as going from Romanian to English, which is kind of silly.
Languages are not usually grouped in "simple languages" vs "complex languages"
I'm not suggesting it should be. I'm merely pointing out that the tree model eliminates any possibility of a language descending from two parents, as creoles, for instance, do. That's a severe limitation to significance.
 (though, after eliminating the vagueness these terms inherently have, it may be proposed for a taxonomy, however check the conclusion of this post, too), therefore I don't believe Italian will ever be classified as "West Germanic".
No-one, as far as I know, has ever suggested it should be. Apart from anything else, the Germanic infkuences on Italian have not been Western.
 I think before speaking how much a language is or is not Germanic, we must find out what Germanic really means. Certainly, we won't find an universal definition, but we will find several definitions ultimately agreeing, converging on some important aspects. I'll start with two links (if you need, I'll search for more serious and scholarly materials), trying to picture what a Germanic language is:
I don't see any discussion at all there of the differences between English and the other Germanic languages, which are considerable. If all you ever do is discuss the ways in which English is similar to the Germanic languages, then of course you end up thinking English is a Germanic language. If all you did was look at the similarities between moder English and modern French (or even old French) then you'd end up classifying them both together.
 
What I'm arguing for is consideration of both the similarities and the differences: put another way, considering the similiarities to all other languages.
 
The tree model shows modern English as closer to Old Norse than it is to modern French, which is ridiculous.
 As it can be seen "having a simple grammar and syntax" (or the opposite of it) is not enounced as a criterion for "Germanicity".  The less rigid definitions of Germanic languages require them to be IE languages which went through the first Germanic shift as enounced by Grimm's law. The more rigid ones require several extra features - like having strong and weak verbs or supplementary sound changes (also in vowels, e.g. a > o as in the PIE *mater- giving the PGmc *mothær)
 
The linguistic trees can be differently pictured, according to what they are supposed to represent. The typical Germanic languages tree where English is a leaf of the West Germanic branch shows the historical evolution proposed by linguists, which also follows some of the considered important features - those which make English to be a Germanic language.
If the features 'considered important' are those which make English be a Germanic language, then you're never going to conclude anything else, are you? (NB One French and one Brythonic construction, common in English: not Germanic Smile )
 
That's begging the question you're trying to answer.
Arguably one could paint a different tree and place English in Celtic tree based on several loanwords or whatever other features the Germanic languages and particularly English got from Celtic. However this latter tree, though probably a legitimate representation to follow the history of some Celtic features, won't define English as a Celtic language.
It would define it as a Celtic language just as ignoring Romance and Celtic influences leave you defining it as a Germanic one. The point is that any such simplistic classification is biassed.
 
Of course, one would counter-argue, well, these definitions are eventually conventional. Why do we call English Germanic and not Romance (or Altaic based on whatever loanwords or who knows what common features we can identify between these languages)? True, but so are all definitions. What is more important is to be operational, to be meaningful, to lead - in Lakatos' terms - to a progressive research.
 
But that is what sticking to the usual tree model stops you doing. You end up just proving over and over the same old theories, because you accept them as premises. "We know English is Germanic, so if our research says it isn't, we'll throw out the research." And out of the window go periphrastic progressives, plural formations, word order, inverted questions, gender-specific reflexive pronouns, no 'fahren/gehen' distinction....
 
Some food for thought (I gave both links in the original thread: the first is reasonably short, 23 pages, mainly references, the second is nearly 100 pages Hard%20Working)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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