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New primative tribe discovered in the Amazon
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New primative tribe discovered in the Amazon
    Posted: 30-May-2008 at 16:11
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080529/sc_nm/brazil_tribe_dc
Originally posted by Yahoo.com

RIO DE JANEIRO (Reuters) - Amazon Indians from one of the world's last uncontacted tribes have been photographed from the air, with striking images released on Thursday showing them painted bright red and brandishing bows and arrows.

The photographs of the tribe near the border between Brazil and Peru are rare evidence that such groups exist. A Brazilian official involved in the expedition said many of them are in increasing danger from illegal logging.

"What is happening in this region is a monumental crime against the natural world, the tribes, the fauna and is further testimony to the complete irrationality with which we, the 'civilized' ones, treat the world," Jose Carlos Meirelles was quoted as saying in a statement by the Survival International group.

One of the pictures, which can be seen on Survival International's Web site (http://www.survival-international.org), shows two Indian men covered in bright red pigment poised to fire arrows at the aircraft while another Indian looks on.

Another photo shows about 15 Indians near thatched huts, some of them also preparing to fire arrows at the aircraft.

"The world needs to wake up to this, and ensure that their territory is protected in accordance with international law. Otherwise, they will soon be made extinct," said Stephen Corry, the director of Survival International, which supports tribal people around the world.

Of more than 100 uncontacted tribes worldwide, more than half live in either Brazil or Peru, Survival International says. It says all are in grave danger of being forced off their land, killed and ravaged by new diseases.

 
The question arises, how do we go around civilising them? Adults would be difficult, children easier; the younger they are. An immunisation programme will also be needed.
 


Edited by Sparten - 30-May-2008 at 20:46
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 16:14
I read that too this morning. Amazing that there exists tribes like that in the modern era. Now the concern is to leave their habitat alone.
 
 
Sparten maybe you'd want to tidy up the weird lettering in your post.
 
Sincerely,
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 20:52
Done.
 
I think that while these tribes and their way of life is fascinating to me as a history buff, who is interested in human social evolution, we cannot let people live in such extreme primative conditions practically. Either you shield them from the outside world, which would be essentially denying them a chance at a better life in many ways, (there diet, health, and living standards can be increased at no real expense or effort), or you allow them that chance, then their traditional life is doomed, our culture is at a minimum agricultural, hunter-gatherers are obsolete.
 
 
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:15
I saw this a couple days ago and thought it was quite fascinating.  It is hard to believe that there are still peoples who have managed to preserve their way of life untouched by the modern world.  Does anyone know to which Amerindian peoples this tribe belongs?  Are we seeing a pristine picture of what the Spanish conquistadores saw upon landing in the New World?  Or, did this tribe manage to escape contact with the conquistadores, assuming it existed in the 16th century?
 
Here is a picture that shows the tribesmen actually firing arrows at the circling plane:
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 30-May-2008 at 21:19
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:18
The pre-contact Americans had settled and civlised socities as well, so I think the Spanish saw a lot more advanced people.
 
I repeat, they need to be civilised. Now.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:22
Originally posted by Sparten

The pre-contact Americans had settled and civlised socities as well, so I think the Spanish saw a lot more advanced people.
 
Well yes, obviously, with Tenochtitlan and other large cities.  But if they came into contact with some "less-civilized" people living in small villages, is this what they looked like?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:32
The difference was not as great to the spanish as it is to us.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:40
Originally posted by Sparten

The difference was not as great to the spanish as it is to us.
 
Yes, I realize that.  But I am not asking about perceptions of modernity (or lack thereof) of 16th century Spaniards and 21st century observers.  My question has to do with historical objectivity.  Here we have a picture of what is purported to be an Amazonian tribe untouched by modernity.  Therefore, is this the same view of Amerindians villagers (not city dwellers) that the Spanish saw?  Or, if they had no contact with the Spanish (it seems like they have not), are we seeing a pre-European contact civilization, as if it was preserved in a time capsule?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 21:41
More than a pre-contact civilisation, you are seeing 10,000 BC.
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 22:05
Why do they need to be civilized? It seems to me that their way of life has worked very well for them so far. Why should the greater outside world force these people to change their way of life?
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Posts: 769 		  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 22:16
Just imagine being one of them and suddenly seeing something like a plane, or imagine being brought to NYC or something...
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Posts: 200 		  Quote Travis Congleton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 22:39
Are we actually civilized enough to introduce to them what 'civilized' really is?
 
My opinion is; no, we are not.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 22:53
I still think this discovery presents us with an oppportunity to talk about whether or not the study of history can have a "scientific" aspect to it, that it does not have to be just the subjective musings of pompous academics in ivory towers. 
 
Here we have an example, possibly, of actual objective truth in front of us to which both historical and anthropological accounts of Amerindians and other aboriginal peoples can be measured.  Why should we debate about whether or not they need to be "civilized" by our standards?  The historical implications and meaning are much more interesting.
 
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2008 at 23:01
The problem is civilization wouldn't do them any good. Would we provide them money for evver? No. They would become poor farmers like millions like them, living impoverished in ghettos, ending up drinking and gambling.

Better leave them be. The might live 40 years or less but they are content at least
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 01:17
This is amazing. How many other people have these guys ever seen?
Unfortunately these people are now under threat. Where it is curious scientists or illegal loggers both will bring about the destruction of their community. Even if 1 person goes in to learn from them, they too, will learn from him and their society changed.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 06:23
Originally posted by Sparten

Done.
 
I think that while these tribes and their way of life is fascinating to me as a history buff, who is interested in human social evolution, we cannot let people live in such extreme primative conditions practically. Either you shield them from the outside world, which would be essentially denying them a chance at a better life in many ways, (there diet, health, and living standards can be increased at no real expense or effort), or you allow them that chance, then their traditional life is doomed, our culture is at a minimum agricultural, hunter-gatherers are obsolete.
 
 
Absolutely agree. The problem is humanitarian rather than scientific.
Brazilians have estimated that there are still perhaps 300 or a thousand uncontacted natives in the Amazon. Some contacted tribes have been kept isolated and protected by the army, to prevent "civilized" people to reach there. Fortunatelly, the Brazilian army in the Amazon has a large component of Amerindians and Cablocos (mestizos) rather than other peoples, so they sympatize with them.
 
Now, once people is contacted you have to rush. People must be vaccinated, and they have to receive all kind of help, to prevent they fall in the long list of victims of the so called "civilization". Fortunatelly these days the states are less brutish than in the past.
 
Risks are always present, including for those who will protect the Indians. They could easily be killed by them in an ambush, and in that case no laws apply.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 06:27
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

I saw this a couple days ago and thought it was quite fascinating.  It is hard to believe that there are still peoples who have managed to preserve their way of life untouched by the modern world.  Does anyone know to which Amerindian peoples this tribe belongs?  Are we seeing a pristine picture of what the Spanish conquistadores saw upon landing in the New World?  Or, did this tribe manage to escape contact with the conquistadores, assuming it existed in the 16th century?
 
Here is a picture that shows the tribesmen actually firing arrows at the circling plane:
 
 
Well, Spaniards met all kind of people with different degrees of culture. However, nor the Spaniards or Portuguese manage to enter very deep in the jungle in ancient times, simply because they were killed on the spot.
 
If these people shot at the plane, perhaps they have previous experiences with westerners. Not long ago Indians in Brazil were killed from chopters.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 06:29
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Sparten

The pre-contact Americans had settled and civlised socities as well, so I think the Spanish saw a lot more advanced people.
 
Well yes, obviously, with Tenochtitlan and other large cities.  But if they came into contact with some "less-civilized" people living in small villages, is this what they looked like?
 
 
This is what Amazonian Indians looked like. You can't simply extrapolate the experience of some people from the Amazon to very far away places like Mexico, Peru, Canada or Chile.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 06:32
Originally posted by Sparten

More than a pre-contact civilisation, you are seeing 10,000 BC.
 
Not really either. What you see there is a culture addapted to the life in the Amazon. 10.000 years ago people was crossing the Bering strait and probably had a culture a lot more similar to modern Inuits than anything else. Now, addapting to the Amazon is not a small achievement given that westerners survivors of plane accidents usually can't survive a week there.


Edited by pinguin - 31-May-2008 at 06:33
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2008 at 06:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Well, Spaniards met all kind of people with different degrees of culture. However, nor the Spaniards or Portuguese manage to enter very deep in the jungle in ancient times, simply because they were killed on the spot.
 
Were there not some journeys down the Amazon by explorers in the 16th-17th centuries?  I don't know how close this tribe is to the river but it says they are identified as an "Amazonian tribe."
 
But I am guessing that they do not have any kind of written or pictographic records that extend back 400-500 years.  Perhaps they have some kind of oral tradition that preserves what contact they may have had with Westerners?
 
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