9th of May celebrations at Moscow!!!

Terve Wilpuri, h�v� p�iv�� ja teren tuolemast!!! Was that correct?

Yes, it is really amazing that there was massive starvation during the civil war, n the horses were taken to the front (by both sides), we just got out of WWI, there was starvation already began in February 1917, and there were droughts in 1920 and 1921. So obviously it's all Lenin's fault, after all what effeccts could the things I jsut listed have ont eh quality of live in the country?
Also 1953 was a good time for Russia, and I fail to see how anything you said in the second sentence is true.

Uljanov had his policy half built on starving the peasant population of Russia to death. I could find you a couple of his quotes from telegrams to high officials where he demands dtarvation as the way to prosperity, but that would demand me searching for them from my 600+ page "Black book of communism ". I could do it just for you, drug moi. Do you really think Uljanov had any attempt to ease the state of Russia, he had fantasies of a utopic socialist state which he used terror and oppression upon his own people to achieve. It could even seem that you picture him as the kind of a man drawn into brezhnev-time school books of Soviet Estonia - playing snowfights with happy children who have footware, which weren't widely seen during his reign of Russia, the the footware i mean, i don't know about the snowfights to raise the moral of Soviet children!

And about the blaming Ukrainians for being massacred in millions as their own fault, that really pissed me off, i'll be back on that my "civilised" friend. 

The state of the relationships between the Soviet state and the peasantry: The country had his policy built upon collectivization, to get a pretty big part of the so called "collective" harvest to themselves. The peasants on the other hand had their policy of hiding crops built on basic survival instincts. therefore, the amount that the Soviet government took from the peasants didn't leave enough for them to survive without stealing some of it, no crime to my ears and eyes here.

What did Stalin do to the peasantry: The more furtile the ground the more crops was demanded. In 1930 the state took away 30% of Ukraine harvest, 38% of Northern-Caucasian and 33% of the harvest of Khazakhstan. The very next year, and i emphasize that the harvest was much less of that then of the last year, the government demanded, by the same order 41.5%, 47% and 39.5%. This could result in nothing else other than a total desorganization of the production cycle. The conflict was in one way unsolvable as one side needed to hide crops to live, the other, the governmenst needed to get the crops from the same peasants to fulfill the unrealistic plans needed to fulfill and the unrealism increased every year. To show the increase, the collectivization plan demanded 32% more crops in 1932 than it did in 1931. The collecting started extremely slowly as the crops was hidden by peasants who had a silent agreement with the higher workers of the collective farms aswell, or as we say kolhoz Dark One. To get the crops, the government had to send in strike teams composed of Comm-youth and various recruitted communists. The truly military enviremnt of the countrysides is described by an instructor of the (commitee of something, can't translate it by head right now) at Lower-Volga.

"Arrests and searches are being conducted by random personell: The members of the local village council, all sorts of emissaries, members of strike brigades, any comm-youth who has the desire to do so. This year, 12% of the districts farmers have been trialed, not counting the deported kulak's and fined peasants. According to the district attorney, during the past year, 15% of the grown-up population has suffered under various types of repressive means. If i add the 800 farmers evicted for collective farms in the last month, you can imagine the magnitude of the repressions in this district. Except the cases where massrepressions  are truly justified, i'd have to say that the effectivity of repressive methods is decreasing intensly as it is difficult to enforce them all without crossing certain borders/lines. All of the prisons are filled to blow. In the prison of Balashov, there are five times the maximum amount of prisoners allowed by law, the small district prison of Jelan is filled with 610 prisoners. In the last month 78 trialed prisoners from Balashov have been sent back to Jelan, of who 48 were under ten years old. 21 of them were let go withput hesitation. To finish the description of the well aknowledged and solely used method - the method of force - i will add a few words about single peasants towards who everything is done to prevent them from harvesting and giving over the final product in other words, are prevented to actively take part of the collectivization process.

The next example gives the picture of in what scale the peasants are being repressed: In Mortsh�, a peasant, who had filled the plan of collectivization with 100%, to the head of the districts head of the commitee of... (the same one i couldn't translate before), comrade Fomitshev and asked him to deport him to further north beacuse he says: "it isn't possible to lve in these conditions anyway" as he explained. The same is expressed in the letter from 16 people from the village of Aleksandrovo who demanded to be deported outside from their oblast. At 9-10 in the evening, a "siege"/"attack" is conducted which takes place in the following manner: A brigade who is sieging a certain household lines up the people who have not filled the plan and "persuades" them to honor their duty by various means. This is the way "sieges are conducted to people on the list given and it starts over and over every evening.

In the arsenal of repressions, a law enforeced in august 7 in 1932., during the peak of the social war between the peasantry and the government. It stated that a 10 year camp sentence or a deathpenalty would be a sentence for a person who "loots or steals any kind of socialist property". The most peasants accused by this law had stolen a few wheatheads and this law sent 125000 people  from august 1932 to december 1933 to camps, 5400 of them were executed. This did not work. Only 15-20% of the plan was fulfilled in october 1932. So the politbureau sent a comission with Vjatsheslav Molotov and Lazar Kaganovitsh in the head of it to Ukraine and North-Caucasus to increase the rate of collectivization. The commitees decision was mainly this: To clean out all of the shops in the districts who had ended up in the "black list". Also, a total halt on trading, the immideate demand to pay back all existing loans, and the immideate arrest of all "saboteurs", "counterrevolutionary and foreign elements" by GPU. In the case of "sabotage", the living population of the area are sentenced to mass-deportation. In December, entire villages were deported. The GULAG camp reports state that in 1932. 71236 deported civilians arrived, but in 1933. already 268091 were reprted to come in. Arrests took place verywhere and even local partymembers were no exception.

Could these repressive measures bring a victory to the state in the war against peasants? "NO", said one Italian consul in his very insightful report at Novorossiski. It basicly stated that these measures were not sufficient as the so called "enemy" was scattered across this massive territory. So what was left for the government? To beat the "enemy". There was only one solution: starv them!

First reports of hunger and critical food situations that would occur in the winter of 1932-1933, arrived in Moscow during the summer of 1932. In August 1932. Molotov reosrted that "a realistic chance for starvation will occur even in those districts where the harvest had been superb". Despite that he put up a plan for collectivization, may the results be what they may. On the same month the foreman of the council of the peoples commissary (or something like that) Issajev of the state of Kazakhstan informed of the magnitude of starvation in that republic where collectivization and the forcing sedentary lives on nomads had utterly disorganized the traditional economy based on the very same nomad lifestyle.( Yet another crime which shows the low of Russias culture at the time) Even the most fanatic Stalinists favored a decrease in collectivization as the current state would not leave anyone living to harvest the next year. Molotov protected Stalins views on the matter with blank talk of the state coming as the very first thing in everyones lives. In a few days, the politbureau sent a letter to local authorities which ordered all of the crops that collective farm leaders had, also the crops that would be used as seeding material next year.

The result was total starvation and lack of food in the districts in the "black list". So the peasantry started to go to towns en masse, to find food. In January 22 1933. a law was enforced which was literally an excecution for 6 million people. Stalin and Molotov had signed it. It gave an order to the GPU to "stop the immigration of  Ukrainian and North-Cauacasian peasants to nearby towns by any means possible"! The government stated that the mass immigrations to towns was a commited by the enemies of the soviet state, counter-revolutionaries and Polish agents. In all of the districts, the sale of train tickets was stopped and to stop the peasants from leaving their farms, roadblocks guarded by GPU special units were posted everywhere. In March 1933. 219,460 people had been arrested to stop those very peasants from finding food in towns. 186,588 of them were returned to their home districts, back to hunger.

An Italian consul at Harkov reports that peasants leave their children to city borders and themselves go back to villages to die as they know, survival for them is not an option and hope that some good-hearted people will take their children as their own. Workers named dvorniki who took children brought to towns in the previous manner, to police stations. During midngiht, the children would be taken to the tradestation of Severodonetski by trucks. The medical workers there select some of them. The ones who were not hunger-swolen and who may stay alive are then sent to the barracks of Holdnaja Gora, which means Cold Mountains if i am not mistaken. Sheds were an option to hold children aswell. 8000 people struggled for their lives in that manner, mostly children. Hunger-swolen people were transported to the countryside and left 50-60km from the nearest towns to die and never to be seen by anyone. At those very places, mass graves were dug for the already dead.

The deathcount found its peak in the spring of 1933. where at some villages of population of thousands were left with just ten to twenty people living. Cannibalism was reported by Italian diplomats and GPU employees aswell: "In Harkov, 250 starved to death people were picked up every night. It was noticed a large amount  of them had no liver anymore - it seemed to have been removed by large insicions. The police later arrested a few of these "amputators", who admitted that of that meat they made pies, and sold them at marketplaces."

While millions of peasants were starving the Soviet Union exported 18 million tsentners of crops for the "need of industrialization" In places like Harkov and the surrounding villages, which were most severely struck with starvation, deathrate rose ten times of the normal rate within the timeframe of January 1933 - June of the same year. The city of Harkov lost 120,000 people, Krasnodar 40,000 and Stavropol 20,000.

I could write twice the length of what i have written up to now, but it is devastating to continue. It should prove, to Dark One mostly, that the peasants of Ukraine, North-Caucasus, Kazakhstan and of various Russian areas had no fault in the hunger forced upon them. The Soviet state asked such amounts of crops that were beyond the capacity of the peasants of that time. The utopic state of Stalin payed the tax of 6 million civilians to industrialize itself and if anyone thinks that is correct, then let them think so, but may they never preach me about evil of others, that goes for you Dark One.

"I didn't say you were all Nazis. I said your government supported them and you on numerous occasions stated how much better the Nazis were than the Soviets.
So I'm assumming that if a self proclaimed intellectual of today can look back and say that the Nazis were better than us, tehn people of the time surely thought so too."

The government could not have been very supportive towards nazis as you yourselves had our government killed, deported, driven mad or god knows what, before the German invasion of 1941. The government put up by nazis could have been nothing but supportive to nazis, naturally. The statements of nazis being better can't be argued with you. You state that i should love the killers of my kin, i say that is irrational, unpatriotic, and also totally unintellectual to think, when you consider the state of the Estonians of that time. It would be a first in history when a nation would ask the barbarians to return when another army has driven them out with no blood to your own people. That is the spot where your arguement utterly falls apart. It is not that the nazis were better as a political grouping. By their ideology, they share the 1st place in evil with all of the failed communist states of the 20th century. One reason why Estonians accepted the German invasion as well as they did, must have been from the previous 700 year experience of German overrule just 20 years ago, so the old was better the new, naturally. Only the way, the administration over Estonia, and Estonians was conducted makes them, better. You have to see the two sides, which i have shown you already times before, again:

The soviet Union: invades, starts terrorizing the populous, burning civilian housings, deporting random civilians from infant age to elderly folk, uses our terrain to bomb Finland. In one word, brings total terror to our land.

Nazi Germany: Invades, kills off the Red Army (amongst which were many Estonian volunteers aswell), won't pillage, won't massacre, won't deport, won't do anything near as repressive as the previous invaders, gives a chance to avenge your people. In one word, brings  disgusting ideals, but no terror. 

Supporting the second invader is a totally normal social behaviour by a nation who sees a glimmer of hope in that.

And also, the nazi invasion gave us the hope of our own country, again. Although an illusion, nazis were more diplomatical and milder in rule and that gave us better terms of negotiations. And i think everybody already knows that Estonia had a government after the German retreat in 1944. -1945. It was a democratic one with the leader of Otto Thief. O, but you Russians liberated us from democracy aswell, do you not remember that, thanks again, dumbasses. So there your argument shatters into a million pieces again, the Soviet Union conquered a democratic nation. Good job Josif and Dark One!

The nazi eradication camps in Estonia and Estonian nazis. Yes we had nazis in Estonia, who were ethnically pure Estonians. They helped to kill jews, maybe various other ethnicities brought here to be killed and deserve to be trialed and/excecuted for that. But during the time of WW2, also previous to that time and even after that, anti-semitism was a cross-continental fashion in Europe. The large majority of all the nations in Europe were anti-semites. From the local bum to the king Of England probably had such views. Every European nation had nazis in them, and i hardly believe, Estonia was the leading nationalist state in 1930's and after. Every occupied country had volunteers offered to aid in the nazi wipeout operations, even the jewish police was formed to aid in the killing of jews. And the Soviet Union only started his anti-semitic acts after WW2. Lucky for the jews, Stalin died before he could start a probable cleansing process himself. The Russians were certainly one of the most anti-semitic nations of the era. In that sense, they largely supported Hitler.

But the 17 WW2 nazi criminals in Estonia right now. Should be trialed or thrown into priosn without one. I'd hate to think that some of them are sitting in their rooms drinking wine and admiring a painting of Hitler next to a fire.

"Stop there. You suppor the Waffen SS, and that's enough info for me."

Estonians had no other army to fight in, liberation of democratic Estonia was the main cause of the volunteers in the Waffen SS.

"I can't say anything about Estonia, but I've been to Lithuania and Latvia. Estonia must be ten times better than those if it's cathching up to western Europe."

Maybe it is all of the dirty snow and mud in the Baltics and Russia that gives a bad impression of all of them. Just look at those areas in times of spring and autumn, they look just horrible to the eye. But still, Estonia, the most beautiful country in the world. Economiccaly, Estonia has been regarded as the most advanced amongst the Baltics, although i really don't care about economy that much.

"Right, Unless of course Jews or other Untermenschen such as Slavs or Gypsies were involved."

Yes, you are probably correct.

"Any Nazis deserved more than what they got. Estonia is by no means differrent. You basically said that you (for what was to you a good reason) betrayed us, so it is logical that we (for what was to us a good reason) got our revenge."

Statements like this can only be said by citizens of imperialistic nations/countries, such as mosern Russia, Imperial England in the 19th century maybe, the Empire of Germany and many others in history.

What do you mean by betrayal. You can betray someone who you had no commitment with previously? You should write a book on that groundbreaking theory, or just explain with a few words in our beloved ALLEMPIRES forum.

"Most occupied countries surrendered the war criminals after the war, such is not the case for Estonia."

Most nazi war criminals are on the run around the world and there are organizations hunting them down today. Estonia is no exeption to others. And giving up nazi warcriminals, you were here for 50 years, couldn't give them out to international courts yourselves aswell.

"The USSR was one of the most tolerant nations around before WW2. The basic principle then was that all are equal."

Anyone, help, help, anyone with a sense and a mind could come and tell Dark One about his countries history during 1920-1939.