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HistoryGuy
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Topic: Who was the 1st to discover America? Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 02:21 |
Silly, Silly, Silly! Don't you know it was the Aboriginals who discovered the Americas circa 15-20kya...
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هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته.
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Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 02:33 |
Originally posted by HistoryGuy
Silly, Silly, Silly! Don't you know it was the Aboriginals who discovered the Americas circa 15-20kya... |
Agreed!
But not only that. More important is that Native Americans developed of the civilizations of the Americas alone. That's what really matters.
Edited by pinguin - 23-Jul-2008 at 02:34
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Sander
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Posted: 23-Jul-2008 at 23:29 |
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley
I have no problem accepting that diffusion is by far the most common way that peoples gain new knowledge. I'm arguing it's not universal.
Originally posted by Sander
How and by whom some complex parallels were spread are rather historical details . They give us more info on specific connections between groups. Such details , or the lack of it , are not important for accepting diffusion as the underlying mechanism. We often lack evidence of specific contacts between specific groups in specific times in the Old World. Take the spoked wheel chariot ; its attested in the Eurasian steppes around 2000 BC and it appeared later in in egypt, europe and eastern asia. Its generally accepted as a diffused trait, even though we in cases lack details on who were the agents of transmission. |
OK. Although we don't know the precise agents of diffusion, it's reasonable to assume based on the similarity between spoked wheels around the world and the timing of their appearance in different places that spoked wheels were diffused from a single source.
But Central American writing systems are a very different case. What would you suggest are their closest relatives among Old World scripts? What similarities do you see between, say, Mayan script and those source scripts that show the one being a development of the other? |
I havent argued for visible connections between an Old World writing system and Meso american at all. I argued that by stimulus diffusion , the concept of writing can diffuse without leaving visible traces in ' descendants ', so this can count for meso american writing as well.
Because diffusion is the standard process its justified to use it as our basic position, also when some details on how and by whom etc are not clear. Statistic probability puts weight on the scale when judging the likehood in an unclear case. Suppose that a certain complex trait is in 99 of 100 cases ( not counting the oldest as diffusion) spread by diffusion then the probability of case nr. 101 did not , does'nt even exceed 1 /100 . In other words, very improbable.
Phrases like 'independent parellel innovation 'etc. have a special meaning in isolationism- diffusionism discussions ( and want to imply complex shared traits between groups without underlying diffusion ). Outside these debates, however, the word ' independent' is used far more loosely and this can confuse. The sextant for example is often said to have been 'invented independently' by an Englisman and an American. In some way , it aint wrong to call it like that but here ( and in many other cases) the usage does not deny some underlying diffusion of complex technologies between the groups enabling the innovation.
Edited by Sander - 02-Aug-2008 at 02:04
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Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 02:23 |
Sanders:
You are not using standard logic.
(1) Of course the process of stimulus diffusion exist. However, there is no proof whatsoever that the idea of writing came to the Americas from abroad. Yes, you can argue that's not the case in Easter Island and I would agree. But in the Mesoamerican region there is not a single evidence that writing is anything but a local invention.
(2) Your probabily theory don't apply in this case. The problem it is not a matter of "guessing" or "chances". The problem is lack of evidence of contact.
(3) Phrases like "Independent innovation" is just something evident to any historian and archaeologist that has the development of compared cultures of different latitudes. Besides, the history of inventors shows several cases of parallel developments.
In any case, you still haven't done your homework. Where is your proof of the master of the Old World that tought theirs innovations and ideas to the "poor ignorant Indians"?
(Don't be surprised that many experts say the root of hyperdiffusionism is racism)
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red clay
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Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 02:49 |
Pinguin, your starting to sound like an extremist. Yeah, you'll fit right in with ashok's boys.
Ping, we've been hearing the same stuff over, and over, x100. No sourcing, no referrences, nada. Why don't you save that stuff for your lawn? Make it nice and green.
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Posted: 24-Jul-2008 at 02:52 |
Ayayay, Red Clay.
I just was asking by a little physical evidence...
Peace
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Sander
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Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 05:44 |
Now, let's say that Meso american writing was not an exception and that the concept of writing diffused to the Americas ; They did not had to take over a complete system or being colonized of course. Actually, even one literate chinese, middle easterner, european etc would have been enough to introduce the concept to them.
Cultural Diffusionism (refering to the old 'School' ) in the Isolationism controversy was not about all culture traits ,but about complex shared traits , especially those having long records of intercultural diffusion. It's interesting that even Tylor ( doyen of the Old Cultural Evolution school ) implied that isolationist views are often unrealistic and stated that it's unreasonable to claim an independent origin ( so without diffusion) for some complex parallels. To give an example :
"The more numerous are such elements , the more improbable the reccurence of their combination...Such a game as Pachisi , combining the invention of divining by lot, its application to the sportive wager , the combination of several lots with an appreciation of the law of chances , the transfer of the result to a counting board , the rules of moving and taking, would place it in perhaps the 6 th order , the recurrence of which might be less than chess, but according to common experience still far outside any probability on which reasonable man could count."
E. Tylor, "American Lot Games as Evidence of Asiatic Intercourse before the Time of Columbus" (Internationales Archie fur Ethnogrophie, Vol. 9, supplement, 1896), p. 66
Edited by Sander - 12-Dec-2008 at 19:01
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Posted: 26-Jul-2008 at 06:13 |
Well, how do you explain then the fact that the origins of origins of Maya scripts can be traced back to the Olmecs and to simpler scripts, all of them from the same region?
When a writing system is copied, it appeards suddenly in an area. Cherokee and African alphabets appeared formed as a complete inventions during the 19th century. It is not the case of American scripts that evolved through time.
With respect to Patolli being a supposed copy of an Asian invention, I am afraid the fellow didn't have a clue that similar games were invented all over the world, in places like Egypt, Rome, Polynesia, etc. I am afraid in quoting such ancient authorities we are just echoing prejudices of the 19th century.
Edited by pinguin - 26-Jul-2008 at 06:16
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Sander
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 01:34 |
The isolationist assertion that the Indians were the only ones in the world with zero outside influence on the ancient civilizations , until conquered by europeans, seems extremely unlikely. Incorporating diffusion in the ancient process makes it more realistic. This does not make the indians different from others ; on the contrary, it actually makes them part of ancient global exchanging processes, instead of cutting them off from it.
The hard-line stance of "zero cultural influence on American civilizations " is of course not shared by all meso-americanists. Prof. Michael Coe for example, one of the foremost authorities on Meso-american cultures (especially Maya) :
"Even more extraordinary, as the historian of science Dr. Joseph Needham reminds us, Chinese astronomers of the Han Dynasty as well as the ancient Maya used exactly the same complex calculations to give warning about the likelihood of lunar and solar eclipses. These data would suggest that there was direct contact across the Pacific. As oriental seafaring was always on a far higher plane than anything known in the prehispanic New World, it is possible that Asian intellectuals may have established some sort of contact with their Mesoamerican counterparts by the end of the Preclassic".
"... let me point out one further piece of evidence. Dr. Paul Tolstoy of the University of Montreal has made a meticulous study of the occurrence of the techniques and tools utilized in the manufacture of bark paper around the Pacific basin. It is his well-founded conclusion that this technology, known in ancient China, Southeast Asia and Indonesia, as well as in Mesoamerica, was diffused from eastern Indonesia to Mesoamerica at a very early date".
" This by no means implies that the Maya - or any other Mesoamerican civilization - were merely derivative from Old World prototypes. What it does suggest is that at a few times in their history, the Maya may have been receptive to some important ideas originating in the Eastern Hemisphere".
( Michael Coe , The Maya, 1987 : 45-47 )
Interesting
Edited by Sander - 31-Aug-2008 at 05:35
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 01:50 |
Well there was a guy named Bjarni who would have dicovered america if he had gotten out of the boat. Source: The greatest stories never told by Rick Beyer. And there is evidence that the pheniocian's may have traded with the natives, source: Lies my teacher told me by Professer James W. Lowen.
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 07:41 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Well there was a guy named Bjarni who would have dicovered america if he had gotten out of the boat. Source: The greatest stories never told by Rick Beyer. And there is evidence that the pheniocian's may have traded with the natives, source: Lies my teacher told me by Professer James W. Lowen. |
Sure. There is also evidence of the chupacabras eaten the chickens in the farms where I live
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 07:45 |
Originally posted by Sander
The isolationist assertion that the Indians were the only ones in the world with zero outside influence on the ancient civilizations , until conquered by europeans, seems extremely unlikely... |
Perhaps for you. However, that's the truth, verified by all the scientific studies about the Amerindian past of the Americas. The only exceptions are the contact by the Inuits that comming from Siberia reached Alaska, populated all the American Artic, reached Iceland and perhaps Europe. That's the exception rather than the rule.
The desperation to prove contacts before the European Invasion just shows the prejudice of people about the Amerindians. It is simply racism that education has not yet erased from the mentality of people outside the Americas.
Edited by pinguin - 31-Aug-2008 at 07:46
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 11:30 |
Originally posted by pinguin
It is simply racism that education has not yet erased from the mentality of people outside the Americas. |
hmmm, my impression is that those theories are even more popular inside the Americas than they are outside the Americas
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 13:45 |
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by pinguin
It is simply racism that education has not yet erased from the mentality of people outside the Americas. |
hmmm, my impression is that those theories are even more popular inside the Americas than they are outside the Americas
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Indeed, but mainly between people with low education. Yes, the same people that believes in the widow, the bad eye, UFOs, ghosts, abductions and the chupacabras, tend to believe in ancient white teachers coming to Tiahuanaco, and that the Atlantis was in the Andes. They also tend to believe they are pure european descendents, while genetics tell otherwise. Therefore, they accept wild ideas born in europe as if they were the truth. Not only ufology and pyramid science, but also pre-columbian contacs and nazi esoterism.
Most people with a little bit of culture, though. admire the originality of the ancient cultures of the Andes and pride of them. And after visiting so many museums, and reading so much about it, they get convinced that pre-Columbian contacts is balooney.
Edited by pinguin - 31-Aug-2008 at 13:51
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 16:49 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
Well there was a guy named Bjarni who would have dicovered america if he had gotten out of the boat. Source: The greatest stories never told by Rick Beyer. And there is evidence that the pheniocian's may have traded with the natives, source: Lies my teacher told me by Professer James W. Lowen. |
Sure. There is also evidence of the chupacabras eaten the chickens in the farms where I live |
Hey I've givven you my sources dude. What's a chupacraba?
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red clay
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 19:05 |
Originally posted by pinguin
Originally posted by Mixcoatl
Originally posted by pinguin
It is simply racism that education has not yet erased from the mentality of people outside the Americas. |
hmmm, my impression is that those theories are even more popular inside the Americas than they are outside the Americas
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Indeed, but mainly between people with low education. Yes, the same people that believes in the widow, the bad eye, UFOs, ghosts, abductions and the chupacabras, tend to believe in ancient white teachers coming to Tiahuanaco, and that the Atlantis was in the Andes. They also tend to believe they are pure european descendents, while genetics tell otherwise. Therefore, they accept wild ideas born in europe as if they were the truth. Not only ufology and pyramid science, but also pre-columbian contacs and nazi esoterism.
Most people with a little bit of culture, though. admire the originality of the ancient cultures of the Andes and pride of them. And after visiting so many museums, and reading so much about it, they get convinced that pre-Columbian contacts is balooney.
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Actually it's going the other way around. With academic institutions such as the University of Pennsylvania Museum heavily engaged in research in the Beni and other regions, not to mention the work being done by the Mexican government as well as other local institutions,
The scientific evidence for contact is growing yearly.
Most people with a little bit of culture, though. admire the originality of the ancient cultures of the Andes and pride of them. And after visiting so many museums, and reading so much about it, they get convinced that pre-Columbian contacts is balooney.
The more people actually see the artifacts and the more they read, the more they realize they have been mislead and out right lied to by frightened, intellectual midgets with an outrageous racist agenda. These people refuse to see the evidence for contact for what it is, finding it more comfortable to dismiss anything counter to what they believe as a hoax or some kind of conspiracy.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Count Belisarius
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 19:19 |
Indeed
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Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting)
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Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 00:27 |
Originally posted by red clay
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Actually it's going the other way around. With academic institutions such as the University of Pennsylvania Museum heavily engaged in research in the Beni and other regions, not to mention the work being done by the Mexican government as well as other local institutions,
The scientific evidence for contact is growing yearly.
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Red Clay. The problem is not that "pieces of evidence" exist. The problem is that always, since five centuries ago, those dreams of contact has shown to be balooney, time after time.
Show us, please, a single piece of your "scientific evidence" to see the sources, please.
Originally posted by red clay
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The more people actually see the artifacts and the more they read, the more they realize they have been mislead and out right lied to by frightened, intellectual midgets with an outrageous racist agenda. These people refuse to see the evidence for contact for what it is, finding it more comfortable to dismiss anything counter to what they believe as a hoax or some kind of conspiracy. |
The Afrocentric pseudoculture that grows strong in the United States,and that captures the imagination of some educated people, is as much racists against the Indigenous People of the Americas as the European myth-makers of centuries before.
There is no evidence of contact from Africa to the Americas. There is no evidence of sails invented in Africa either. Africans were lock inland because fault of technology. In fact, there is evidence that West African didn't even populated Cape Verde nor Madagascar before the comming of foreigners! They didn't come to the Americas by swimming.
And it is a conspiracy, indeed. The people of the old world together still don't want to recognize the intelligence of the Indigenous people of the Americas.
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Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 00:34 |
Originally posted by Sander
The hard-line stance of "zero cultural influence on American civilizations " is of course not shared by all meso-americanists. Prof. Michael Coe for example, one of the foremost authorities on Meso-american cultures (especially Maya) :
"... let me point out one further piece of evidence. Dr. Paul Tolstoy of the University of Montreal has made a meticulous study of the occurrence of the techniques and tools utilized in the manufacture of bark paper around the Pacific basin. It is his well-founded conclusion that this technology, known in ancient China, Southeast Asia and Indonesia, as well as in Mesoamerica, was diffused from eastern Indonesia to Mesoamerica at a very early date".
" This by no means implies that the Maya - or any other Mesoamerican civilization - were merely derivative from Old World prototypes. What it does suggest is that at a few times in their history, the Maya may have been receptive to some important ideas originating in the Eastern Hemisphere".
( Michael Coe , The Maya, 1987 : 45-47 )
Interesting |
Oh Yeah. Wasn't professor Coe who discovered the magnetic compass was discovered in the Americas first? Perhaps Chineses borrowed from the Olmecs.
And what about number Cero, that was introduced in Mesoamerica before India? Perhaps was translated from Mesoamerica to South Asia
And, of course, American cotton textiles are older than the ones of the Old World, guess who carried them to Eurasia.
Yeap, fantasy takes quantum leaps.
I wonder why everybody denied Amerindians and Inuits were in Europe before Columbus, when any people of the Old World, no matter how backwars they were, seem to had been in the Americas before Columbus...
Edited by pinguin - 01-Sep-2008 at 00:35
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Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 00:36 |
Originally posted by Count Belisarius
... What's a chupacraba? |
The goatsucker
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