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"CHINA'S 'SMILING ANGEL IN WHEELCHAIR' Olympics

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "CHINA'S 'SMILING ANGEL IN WHEELCHAIR' Olympics
    Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 09:52
It was the girl they attacked, if it had been a strapping wrestler they would have suddenly discovered the value of polite non-violent protests.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 09:53
Depends.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 10:07
Originally posted by Spartakus

Your examples are way too extreme to compare to an attack to a torch. Also, they are incorrect. You see, 9/11 hijackers precisely attacked the people as well as the building. Hiroshima and Nagasaki had as their precise target the Japanese civil population.
Is that so?
 
Did the hijackers know or care about identity of individuals in the WTC?
Did the individual identities of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims matter to the US when they decided to drop the A-bomb?
 
But to accomodate your finer feelings, perhaps I would use the example of a woman assaulted by a robber targetting her purse.  Perhaps the purse was not just a purse but a symbol of decadence and the rich fleecing the poor.
 
You can make a case that the target was the purse, not the woman per se, but the culprit is no less responsible for any assault on the woman.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 10:19
Originally posted by Sparten

It was the girl they attacked, if it had been a strapping wrestler they would have suddenly discovered the value of polite non-violent protests.
I am not sure ... any self-respecting protestors at any protest would know the value of being portrayed as victims.
 
Many so-called protestors are also quite aware of how much they can get away with in different countries.
 
They can travel across the world to protest against G7 or G8 or World Bank or IMF in USA or Europe, tearing up the streets in the process, but not to Dubai or Singapore where there was a real chance of them getting caned and imprisoned, for a long time.


Edited by snowybeagle - 16-Apr-2008 at 10:19
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 16:44
The 9/11 hijackers wanted to kill people, it was said they didn't even think the buildings were going to come down.
 
The protestors went for the Torch, not the person. It didn't matter who it was, they knew what route it was going and were going to be their anyway. The time they chose to attack worked against them, though I'm sure they did it because it was close to where they were at the time. I highly doubted they were plotting to make a move on disabled people, and seeing as how people are lazy and like easy pickings, they probably went to the nearest route to them.
And if my point is wrong on that, it still doesn't mean they plotted against disabled.
 
We are talking about people who are passionate about making a point because they feel they have been wronged and are under the yoke of a oppressive regime. It doesn't matter whether we think that or not, it's how those people feel. And getting that torch or even going for it was going to do what protests are aimed at, getting their cause on the front page of news outlets. It worked, but it could be argued that it backfired.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 18:23
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

The 9/11 hijackers wanted to kill people, it was said they didn't even think the buildings were going to come down.
Probably not that it'd tumble down, but they were targetting the building all the same.
It's not like they checked who were in there before hitting it.
 
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

The protestors went for the Torch, not the person.
...
And if my point is wrong on that, it still doesn't mean they plotted against disabled.
While the intent was on the Torch, it does not diminish the culpability on the assault on the bearer.
 
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

We are talking about people who are passionate about making a point because they feel they have been wronged and are under the yoke of a oppressive regime. It doesn't matter whether we think that or not, it's how those people feel.
But it is a different matter to excuse them for doing something like that to another human being.
They may have their grievances, that does not give them more right to hurt others.


Edited by snowybeagle - 16-Apr-2008 at 18:26
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 21:30
Originally posted by Killabee

The other thing is you failed to answer is what warrant her and other athletes to be attacked by protesters?


they targeted the torch, not the protesters. why do you think they had fire extinguishers with them? wet t-shirt contest?

What she the one who fired the bullet into the Tibetan? Was she the one who was put in charge the crackdown of Tibetan Riot?


she represents the country/government that did it.
 

Tell me how you can compare Temujin to Mao


both killed Chinese.

Adolf Hilter


was responsible for the deaths of millions of "fellow" Germans. you realize this is a history forum?
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 21:33
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Disabled or not, what has she done to deserve being assaulted?
 
Are you, an AE moderator, advocating that Torch Bearers for the 2008 Olympics be assaulted?


i assume it was her own choice to be or accepted beign a torch-bearer so if she assumed she would only get smiling faces in paris she was wrong indeed.

i advocate to ignore and boycott the torch relay initiated by Nazis in 1936 and everything that has to do with it.
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 22:04
Originally posted by snowybeagle


Probably not that it'd tumble down, but they were targetting the building all the same.
It's not like they checked who were in there before hitting it.


You ignore the very basic principle of that terroristic strike. The point was not  just to demolish a building (if they wanted to make a symbolic hit they could as well hit the Statue of Liberty), but to demolish it while there were working people in it. And you do not have to be an expert to think that people inside that building would be Westerners and, therefore, US citizens as well. After all, it was in American soil!

Originally posted by snowybeagle

Did the individual identities of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims matter to the US when they decided to drop the A-bomb?


It counted that they were Japanese, which can as well be an individual identity.
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 00:12
Originally posted by Temujin


they targeted the torch, not the protesters. why do you think they had fire extinguishers with them? wet t-shirt contest?
So? They should bear any responsiblities and consequences that might occur and face condemnation . Just like if I want to snatch your wallet and accidentally kill you. Should I be let go because my aim is at your wallet and not your life?

she represents the country/government that did it.
According to your logic, the Palestinian did a heck of job in Munich since they took down the athletes who respresented the occupier of their nation.
 

both killed Chinese.
That's why you picked Temjin as screenname?

was responsible for the deaths of millions of "fellow" Germans. you realize this is a history forum?
 
He killed people out of his race more than his own kind same as your hero Temjin.


Edited by Killabee - 17-Apr-2008 at 00:17
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 01:13
Probably not that it'd tumble down, but they were targetting the building all the same.
It's not like they checked who were in there before hitting it.
They wanted to kill as many people as possible, it's how you build fear. Though you are right about targetting the building, I don't deny that, they wanted to target American icons.
While the intent was on the Torch, it does not diminish the culpability on the assault on the bearer.
Well, I don't support there way of protesting in either case. I'm just saying what they are doing is more symbolic then trying to hurt someone.
But it is a different matter to excuse them for doing something like that to another human being.
Right, they still have laws to follow, thats to be expected. I'm just pointing out that in away it's afree propaganda, just like the issue of a girl in a wheel chair is elevated to make a story, which is propaganda. Propaganda just means trying to pull people to a cause through publicity, and both sides are trying to use the same story.
One side chose the wrong time.
They may have their grievances, that does not give them more right to hurt others.
They don't have the right to hurt a innocent person, that I'll agree with. Which, she was.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 08:44
Originally posted by Temujin

they targeted the torch, not the protesters. why do you think they had fire extinguishers with them? wet t-shirt contest?
So where's the fire extinguisher when the guy attacked Jin Jing?

Originally posted by Temujin

she represents the country/government that did it.
That is a matter of personal opinion.
 
She was there for the Olympics, she was not there to defend what happened in Tibet.
 
And whether she was or was not a representative of the country, it gave no right for anybody to attack her.
 
And 

Let's all keep ad hominem attacks out of it, and that includes targetting the AE id chosen by individual members.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 08:49
Originally posted by Temujin

i assume it was her own choice to be or accepted beign a torch-bearer so if she assumed she would only get smiling faces in paris she was wrong indeed.
Whether she should expect only smiling faces is irrelevant.
People has a right to show smiling faces or not to show smiling faces, as they pleased.
People has no right to physically violate her, or anybody else for that matter.

Originally posted by Temujin

i advocate to ignore and boycott the torch relay initiated by Nazis in 1936 and everything that has to do with it.
You are entitled to your personal opinion.
 
The Torch has come to signify to many different people something different and unrelated to the Nazis.  I can only recall one Torch bearer by name, Cathy Freeman from Australia, and watching her carrying the Torch on the last leg during the 2000 Sydney Olympics, I am sure there was nothing remotely Nazi associated with the torch as far as she was concerned.
 
Other people are entitled to their opinions what the Torch symbolises.
 
Your personal opinion does not give you or anyone else to physically violate others who hold different views.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 08:59
Originally posted by Spartakus

You ignore the very basic principle of that terroristic strike. The point was not  just to demolish a building (if they wanted to make a symbolic hit they could as well hit the Statue of Liberty), but to demolish it while there were working people in it. And you do not have to be an expert to think that people inside that building would be Westerners and, therefore, US citizens as well. After all, it was in American soil!
If you had been in the USA, like these hijackers had been, you'd have realised what a cosmopolitan place USA is, especially New York, what more Manhattan, or an office building like the WTC would be like.
 
The death toll included nationalities from some 80 different countries!
 


Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by snowybeagle

Did the individual identities of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims matter to the US when they decided to drop the A-bomb?
It counted that they were Japanese, which can as well be an individual identity.
And so why should the assailants of the Torch bearers be excused from charges that they attacked the human beings who were the bearers, instead of attacking just the Torch?
 
They did physically violate the bearers, even if their target was supposedly the Torch.


Edited by snowybeagle - 17-Apr-2008 at 08:59
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 11:38
Originally posted by Killabee

Originally posted by Temujin


they targeted the torch, not the protesters. why do you think they had fire extinguishers with them? wet t-shirt contest?
So? They should bear any responsiblities and consequences that might occur and face condemnation .
Agreed. The thing is however there weren't any adverse consequences. If there were then the courts are open to claims for compensation.
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

[
They may have their grievances, that does not give them more right to hurt others.
They don't have the right to hurt a innocent person, that I'll agree with. Which, she was.
She was? How was she hurt (I mean physically, not just had her feelings hurt)?
 
At the moment this seems to me to be mostly a silly storm in a teacup.
 
Personally I agree with Temujin the whole torch relay thing should be done away with, though only partly because it was started by the Nazis, more because it is a waste of time an money. It should go along with all the other nationalistic flag-waving and medal ceremonies and such, which, apart from anything else, are dead boring and get in the way of the action. They never used to have them.
 
I wouldn't mind the Games being permanently held in Greece either, though that doesn't concern me so much.


Edited by gcle2003 - 17-Apr-2008 at 11:44
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 14:38
Unfortunately gcle2003 that is what protestors actually want, to question the value of holding the Olympics in countries they have animosity towards. These demonstrations have been so lopsided that the demonstrators are losing credibility in my eyes. Free Tibet! Alright. Fine. No Problem. "Um, China. Free Tibet will you pretty please?" All the while the majority of Chinese are being ignored. Maybe they want more rights too. So let's try. "Excuse Mr. PRC. I am asking you kindly to give all of your citizens more rights, if you don't I'm going to stalk you and your Chinese brethren I'm going to upset the applecart. I'm going to extinquish the torch. You'll see how powerful I am. Response, "Bug off westerner."
 
Protests are glorified political maneuvering for the masses. Gives marginal power over things that directly can't be controlled. And if protesters have a chance at going after a handicapped girl or yelling at the faces of Olympic supporters, then they will feel empowered in doing so and feel all the stronger for it. Yet nothing really is accomplished. Because this is international politics and politics has many twists and turns mostly played by the big dogs. I am not saying not to give the protestors their chance. Protesting at least raises awareness. What I am getting at, aside from the difficulties in assuming protests actually effect foreign countries, is that things we consider sacred to the Olympics are now being questioned. The Torch and Olympic sites are a modern traditions. To lose that over politics is like losing personal rights due to the passing of a local law limiting certain behaviors. My wish is for the protestors to protest. For the masses to know that politics are the main reason. To have diverse host countries for each and every Olympics. To keep the flame alive and to encourage appreciation to the host people. Tommorow the political jousting will still continue. Will the Olympic flame?


Edited by Seko - 18-Apr-2008 at 15:33
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 16:03
Much of what you said, about protesting in general, I agree with. However, I do think that in relation to the topic of this thread a mountain is being made of a molehill. Has anyone even broken a fingernail in all this?
 
With regard to the torch, i'm not objecting to it directly, but to the whole charade of parading it around the world. In fact it would be rather neat if at the close of the Games a spark of the flame should be directly handed over to the hosts of the next Games to care for and use in relighting next time.
 
I agree the actual lighting of the flame is an impressive - and not nationalistic - ceremony. Mostly I remember Mohammed Ali lighting it in Atlanta.
 
Like I said, I wouldn't be upset if Greece were made the permanent host, but I also don't mind it rotating. But it is supposed to rotate between cities - the Games are awarded to cities not countries, and I can do without the sight of any national flag anywhere at any time during the whole fortnight.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 03:58
here is another story of a brave chinese student that doesnt get the same attention, well the right attention. This is a nice foot note of moderate and independant thinking - brave in the face of some very ugly attitudes and the shameful behavoiur.
 
picture from the NY times
 
Chinese student in U.S. is caught in confrontation

DURHAM, North Carolina: On the day the Olympic torch was carried through San Francisco last week, Grace Wang, a Chinese freshman at Duke University, came out of her dining hall to find a handful of students gathered for a pro-Tibet vigil facing off with a much larger pro-China counterdemonstration.

Wang, who had friends on both sides, tried to get the two groups to talk, participants said. She began traversing what she called "the middle ground," asking the groups' leaders to meet and making bargains. She said she agreed to write "Free Tibet, Save Tibet" on one student's back only if he would speak with pro-Chinese demonstrators. She pleaded and lectured. In one photo, she is walking toward a phalanx of Chinese flags and banners, her arms overhead in a "timeout" T.

But the would-be referee went unheeded. With Chinese anger stoked by disruption of the Olympic torch relays and criticism of Beijing's policy toward Tibet, what was once a favorite campus cause - the Dalai Lama's people - had become a dangerous flash point, as Wang was soon to find out.

The next day, a photo appeared on an Internet forum for Chinese students with a photo of Wang and the words "traitor to your country" emblazoned in Chinese across her forehead. Wang's Chinese name, identification number and contact information were posted, along with directions to her parents' apartment in Qingdao, a Chinese port city.

Salted with ugly rumors and manipulated photographs, the story of the young woman who was said to have taken sides with Tibet spread through China's most popular Web sites, at each stop generating hundreds or thousands of raging, derogatory posts, some even suggesting that Wang - a slight 20-year-old - be burned in oil.

Someone posted a photo of what was purported to be a bucket of feces emptied on the doorstep of her parents, who had gone into hiding.

"If you return to China, your dead corpse will be chopped into 10,000 pieces," one person wrote in an e-mail message to Wang. "Call the human flesh search engines!" another threatened, using an Internet phrase that implies physical, as opposed to virtual, action.

In an interview Wednesday, Wang said she had been needlessly vilified.

"If traitors are people who want to harm China, then I'm not part of it," she said. "Those people who attack me so severely were the ones who hurt China's image even more."

She added: "They don't know what they mean by 'loving China.' It's not depriving others of their right to speak; it's not asking me or other people to shut up."

In a flattering profile in a Qingdao newspaper in 2006, Wang was described as believing she was "born for politics."

Wang said she writes poetry in classical Chinese, plays a traditional string instrument called the guzheng, and participates in democracy discussion boards back home.

She said she was not in favor of Tibetan independence, but she said problems could be reduced if the two sides understood each other better.

Since riots in Tibet broke out last month, campuses including Cornell, the University of Washington and the University of California, Irvine, have seen a wave of counterdemonstrations.

When Wang encountered the two demonstrations last week, the Chinese students seemed to expect her to join them, she said. But she hesitated.

"They were really shocked to see that I was deciding, because the Chinese side thought I shouldn't even decide at all," she said. "In the end, I decided not to be on either side, because they were too extreme."

Daniel Cordero, a member of the Duke Human Rights Coalition and an organizer of the pro-Tibet vigil, said he was handing out literature when Wang came up and pointed to the counterprotesters.

"She was, like, 'Why are you focusing on the Duke students? Let's have a dialogue with these people,' " he said. "And I'm thinking, 'Oh come on, seriously, that's not going to help anything.' "

Some of Wang's efforts to mediate were met by insults and obscenities from the Chinese students.

"She stood her ground; she's a really brave girl," said Adam Weiss, the student on whose back Wang wrote "Free Tibet."

"You have 200 of your own fellow nationalists yelling at you and calling you a traitor and even threatening to kill you."

At Wang's behest, he ultimately spoke to some of the Chinese contingent, finding, he said, that "we could compromise and say we all wanted increased human rights for all Chinese, and especially for Tibetans."

 
 
 
Grace wang
"Freedom is not independence," she said. "Freedom is freedom. I want people to have free thinking and freedom of speech."
link
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 06:58
Occupational hazard of taking unpopular stances. But I agree she is a brave girl, though hardly "unnocticed" as the King of Sparta would have us believe.
 
 
Incidentally, no western news agency noticed Jiu either, it was the Chinese media which "outed" her.
 
GLCE2003, Jiu Jing suffered bleeding and bruises due to the attack on her by the brave and fearless Tibetan protestors.
 
 
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 09:21
Originally posted by gcle2003

She was? How was she hurt (I mean physically, not just had her feelings hurt)?
I believe the first post of this thread made some mention about it.
 
But even if she had been a martial artist fully capable of knocking out any aggressors and not get hurt in the process, it'd still be no excuse for attempting to physically violate her.
 
Nobody don't have the right to hurt even a single hair of another person.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

At the moment this seems to me to be mostly a silly storm in a teacup.
You mean like making a mountain out of a molehill?
I suppose that would depend on what you would refer to as the "mountain" and what you would refer to as the "molehill".
 
A human being, the Torch bearer was assaulted.  That is neither a molehill nor a mountain, it is a fact.
 
That she was lionised for propaganda purposes by the PRC could be a mountain, but that does nothing to diminish that it was a wrong thing to do to her.
 
That she was not seriously injured is also not a molehill - i.e., it is cowardly, it would be a total lack of integrity to trivialise the fact that physical violation has occurred.
 
What is worse is one of AE's moderators, Temujin, tried to bring in Nazism and wheelchair together, citing an entirely ficticious Dr Strangelove, when there is nothing to remotely associate Jin Jing with being a Nazi or otherwise an evil person or deserves being assaulted.
 
Cathy Freeman carried the Torch during its last leg in the 2000 Sydney Olympics, she being an Australian Aborigine, as a representative of a country whose country once inflicted horrors on her ethnic group.  And at the time of Freeman's carrying the Torch, the Australian government had yet to apologise for the Stolen Generations.
 
Any association of the Torch with Nazism is purely a matter of personal opinion - one does not have the right to impose it on others, nor expect to be justified when they acted upon it to physically violate others who do not share the same opinion.
 
There shouldn't be any comparison between Australia and China, but then again, there shouldn't be any obligation for any sportsman carrying the Olympic Torch to bear responsibilities for his or her government's misdeeds, neither from the past, nor at the present.
 
And on the issue that there shouldn't be an issue that it was a bearer on wheelchair being assaulted, there's both yes and no.
 
As a volunteer interpretor and tutor for the deaf for more than a decade, I do affirm that people with disabilities should expect the same dignity in treatment as any others.
 
But I also object to the proposal that they are the same as people without disabilities, the sameness extending to being treated in exactly the same way.
 
You're not respecting a deaf person if you expect to communicate with a deaf person by talking like you would to a normal hearing person, unless you have foreknowledge that the deaf person is fully capable of such communication via cochlear implants (and don't assume lip-reading is a perfect substitute).
 
Similarly, assaulting a wheelchair bound person is not the same as assaulting a fully abled person, ceteris paribus.  The protestor who attacked Jin Jing may have done the same to a fully-abled Torch bearer, but it does not mitigate the worsening of his wrong in doing so to a wheelchair person.
 
This got nothing to do with the personal capacity, capability or dignity of the victim.
The ignominy of an abled person attacking an innocent disabled is inexcusable.
 
On Jin Jing having acquitted herself admirably for her performance during the attack, I have no doubt.
Even an abled person in similar situations might not have kept as cool, so she definitely did well, though I won't support her being used for propaganda purposes.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

It should go along with all the other nationalistic flag-waving and medal ceremonies and such, which, apart from anything else, are dead boring and get in the way of the action. They never used to have them.
What didn't they used to have?
Torch relay was a late intro, but flag wavings and medal ceremonies were there since revival of modern Olympics.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Like I said, I wouldn't be upset if Greece were made the permanent host, but I also don't mind it rotating. But it is supposed to rotate between cities - the Games are awarded to cities not countries, and I can do without the sight of any national flag anywhere at any time during the whole fortnight.
I don't mind the last part myself, for a different reason.
 
I thought it'd be nicer if the participants of the Games were not identified with their nationalities but as members of a common human race.
 
That way, no nation has any reason to wave its flag around the Games, though cities might, since the host is a city, it might become an inter-city Games.
 
Unfortunately, there were practical constraints to maintain the Olympics at inter-country level at the moment.
 
For one thing, it limits the number of participants from bigger and richer countries, allowing people from the smaller or poorer countries more chances at more medals.
 
Medals alone isn't the sole reason for a participant to take part in the Games, of course, but a free-for-all would probably favour people from bigger/richer countries over smaller/poorer countries, and would likely affect the participation levels in an undesirable way, linking it to the wealth and population size of a country.
 
And more important than medals during the Olympics are enabling those without such advantages to be able to better participate.
 
I wouldn't want to see, for example, an Olympics Basketball tournament dominated exclusively by various teams from USA only.
 
As a matter of fact, even in business, there's such a thing as anti-trust or anti-monopoly laws to give the smaller players a chance.
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