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About the Reconquista

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Al Jassas View Drop Down
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About the Reconquista
    Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 10:54
Hello to you all
 
I have been reading a very interesting book lately about the reconquista and Arab/muslim adventures in Europe. I knew that Arabs raids reach Switzerland but was surprised to find that the great St Bernard pass was under their control for some 40 years and that they controlled some parts of Switzerland for nearly 100 years especially st moritz and its surroundings. But what really interested me in this book is that it revealed several previously obscure facts about the conquest of Spain and Southern France and how the reconquista really started. The author, a well known scholar and historian, dug up several old manuscripts and provided some interesting things about that period.
 
The first interesting thing is that both Caliphs Al-Walid and Omar ibn Abdulaziz wanted to evacuate muslims from Europe altogether including recently conquered Islands. This explains why Crete and Corsica were abandoned after they were taken during the former reign. On his orders, the muslims halted after taking Leon and built Valladolid (Balad Al-Walid) and Musa ibn Nusair the military governor and commander of the forces their was recalled to Damascus. He reached their only to find Al-Walid dead and his brother Sulaiman, who was thirsty for conquest so that his name would enter history, relieving him from command and putting a subordinate of his lead the conquest. The guy Ayub Al-Lukhami and his predecessor Al-Hurr Al-Thaqafi completed, by the meaning of the word completed, the conquest of Iberia and not a single part was not conquered. Omar who came after Sulaiman also halted the conquist and was even more enthusiastic to leave Iberia. Some of troops were already withrdrawn, Arabs were not permitted to settle there and niether the Berber. His early death, most likely by poisoning, ended his policies including the overall halt in conquist and given much more power to minorities. This lead for the first great Berber revolt, the first in 20 years and the massacre of Arabs in southern France and in Spain. Arab troops from the mainland ended the rebellion despite being outnumbered and by the heyday of Arab presence in Iberia there were 80 thousand soldiers registered with the Andalusia military command. The civil wars between Arabs and Arabs and Arabs and Berbers erupted violently in the 730s, sources say as much as 100 thousand combatants died and things got even worse, Galicia rebelled in the 740s along with southern France and parts of Iberia as well as the other great Berber revolt which literally cut ties between Arabs, who formed the majority of muslim settlers, and Ummayad strongholds. Berbers were completely dealt with by 745  but the civil war against the Abbasids and a severe drought that lasted for ten years, Arabs evacuated all but very little parts of Spain. Spain above the Druro river wasn't "reconquisted", it was left. When Abdurrahman Al-Dakhil, the Hawk of Quraish, entered Spain, he only managed to gather 7000 men, and most were converts, compared with the 80 thousand soldiers earlier stated. It seems from these sources that because of the lack of security, fromer nobles were actually allowed to create their own armies to protect the lands they were in charge of and that when their several rebellions failed they went to the north which was beyond the capability of Al-Dakhil's small army to conquere.
 
So, what do you think, was the conquesta a remarkable thing done by a small band of fugitives who distroyed a bit by bit a powerful nation or was it really the other way around?
 
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 11:30
What is the name book?
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 11:36
Well, it is quite interesting, I always thought that after the Battle of Covadonga and battle of Tours were the beginning of the slow decline of Muslim control over Iberia.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 11:46
The entire Iberian peninsula was never conquered by muslims AFAIK.
 
 
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 13:20
Originally posted by Leonardo

The entire Iberian peninsula was never conquered by muslims AFAIK.
 


An who said entire?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 14:08
Originally posted by Illirac


Originally posted by Leonardo

The entire Iberian peninsula was never conquered by muslims AFAIK.

An who said entire?



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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 15:18
The theory is interesting, but I'd like to know who the scholar is. The reconquista can be a politically laden topic today and while some might have an agenda of glorifying it (primarily rightwing Westerners and/or Christians) others might profit from diminishing its achievements (Arabs and Muslims are the most obvious). Sceptial, until I'm convinced of the scholar's objectivity.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Illirac


Originally posted by Leonardo

The entire Iberian peninsula was never conquered by muslims AFAIK.
 

An who said entire?



 
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

The guy Ayub Al-Lukhami and his predecessor Al-Hurr Al-Thaqafi completed, by the meaning of the word completed, the conquest of Iberia and not a single part was not conquered.
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 18:10
Originally posted by Leonardo

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Illirac


Originally posted by Leonardo

The entire Iberian peninsula was never conquered by muslims AFAIK.
 

An who said entire?



 
 
 
Originally posted by Al Jassas

The guy Ayub Al-Lukhami and his predecessor Al-Hurr Al-Thaqafi completed, by the meaning of the word completed, the conquest of Iberia and not a single part was not conquered.


Still he had not said nothing (even if he did I doubt you heard him), he just wrote it Wink
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 23:45
Hello to you all
 
Sorry for not relying earlier, just reached home for Spring break. The Book is in Arabic, it name is Arab conquests in France, Italy, Spain and the Mediterrainian Islands", and it quotes a very old book written between the late 8th and mid 9th centuries called "The conquest of Al-Andalus, its governors and the wars that occured on its land". This was a group of sources, letter, quotes etc written like the famous book Nafh Al-teeb gathered from various authors. Also, it quotes  Isidorus Pacensis , the earliest historian of the Arab rule of Iberia who lived during the events in the 8th century. Another book was Al-Khazaeni. Several book written by French orientalists are also quoted like Joseph Reinaud. About the Swiss invasion, an abridged translation of book by Ferdinand Keller was included.
Arabs did conquer all of Iberia. Gijon, Oviedo, La Coruna all were conquered and all had posts. Even Pelayo, who is mentioned by Arab sources, was defeated after Covadonga and because of te civil wars, he was given local adminstration of the hills of Asturias only to fill the void when the troops occupying Ovedio and Gijon were withdrawn in the 730s. Also, remeber that several sources, incluiding Arab ones, lace the battle not in 722 but in the 740s which makes sense.
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 02:57
Ok one thing, the Arabs never held Switzerland (seems crazy to have to point that out). What they did is sending raiders to eastern France (Lyon, Dijon) from the Southern bit of France they held for a few decades. They also launched smaller raids from Fraxinatum but over a century latter that did reach Switzerland and made several Alpine passes dangerous.

Tour is meant to have happened in 732, not 722.

Finally, the Arabs were unable to colonize the North of Iberia. In the Douro region for instance (NW Portugal) they installed a feudal-like system in the 9th century with the earls of the region providing  military supports during the sayffas (summer raids).

There are three reasons they never did colonize the North:

1. Not enough troops and men in general. To this day, Spain is underpopulated. People went to the coasts but entire central regions were left empty.
2. There are at least two chains of mountains and a tough climate that make the trips from north to south quite tough. Moreover no river helps to travel from north to south. As a result, communications were bad, the sovereign had to trust his agents to govern the north.
3. Constant warfare from 700 to 1200, meant that no trade nor settlement nor agriculture could successfully develop in central Iberia.

This inspires me two things: the Arabs could defeat Spaniards in the North but not conquer them and whenever a region was indeed conquered, the Southern ruler did not really rule. The result is something like a blending of the Muslim political system and the European feudal one.
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 09:41
The northern most part of Spain was never conquered by muslims, there were only raids there, and France and Italy were never conquered too.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 13:05
You still haven't told me who the author is or what his credentials are, Al Jassas, which makes it kind of hard to form a verdict. Anyone can read primary sources and interpret them, but this is dangerous without proper schooling in historical method. Joseph Reinaud is a 19th century historian whose work now has mainly historiographical value, to build modern historical theories on 19th century scholars is academic suicide.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 15:44
Which author you mean, I mentioned the books and authors he took information from above also I mentioned that I read a translation of the work by Ferdinand Keller above. As for muslims raiders holding parts of Italy, Switzerland and France, this is a fact. Reinaud ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Toussaint_Reinaud )wrote a book and here its name in French "Invasion Des Sarrazins En France et De France en Savoie, en Piemont et dans La Suisse Pandant les huitieme, neuvieme et dixieme siecles de notre ere. D'apres Les auteurs Chretiens et Mahometans" or "invasions of the Arabs on France and from France on Switzerland, Piedmont, Savoy in the 8th,9th and 10th centuries from muslims and christian authors". At Fraxinetum, the Arabs arrived there in 891 and were only driven out in 975. Between those two dates, the great St Bernard ass was taken in 920, Grenoble in 953, a raid reached as far as Chur canton in 936. It was in 956 that nobles started a campaign against them taken Grenoble back in 956 and the great St Bernard pass about the same time effectively splitting them into two. Fraxinetum was finally taken in 975.
 
As for the conquest of Spain, actually there is no proof what soever that Arabs didn't conquere all of Spain, the roof exist on the opposite. It is well known that Leon, leonah as Arabs called it, was conquered even before Seville. It wasn't evacuated untill the 750s during the civil war that started after the fall of the ummayyads. Shintyaqah, or Santiago de Comostela (which is the capital of Galicia) was also conquered in the beginning of conquest of Spain. Also, what people do not know is that Pelayo was actually a vassal who ruled locally in the name of the Ummayyads like several oter Vizigoth nobles and that he was defeated adter the famous battle and was forced to continue paying tribute. Nobles in the north gathered and declared independence after the civil war of the 730s broke when a large part of Arab forces were withdrawn and eventually defeated by the Berbers. From the incidents above, Arabs left the lands north of the Druro by their own will and were not actually defeated and kicked out, at least not from the plains and cities. 
 
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 16:18
Your agenda is clear now, al-jassas ... the Reconquista never occured at all, it was only a dream of European crusaders, it was really the Muslims who peacefully and voluntarily abandoned that barbaric land to their aboriginal barbarian inhabitants ... LOL
 
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P.S. "To make raids" is not equal to "to conquer"
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 16:48
Al Jassas, as Leornado remarks there is a difference between the raid and the conquest.

The Muslims from Spain (likely recent converts or even still Chistians from the pirate stronghold of Pechina) did conquer Fraxinatum and held it. That's a handful of villages with a bunch of 50 to 300 pirates very similar to the numerous "arrrghnachies" (I did not invent that word for pirate republic) that presented themselves at various periods in the history of the Mediterranean as soon as central power was weakened.

Other strongholds of Muslim pirates existed in Italy. Beyond the southern tip that they had conquered.

No please use your logic: how 300 pirates could possibly held all the land from Marseilles to St Gall in Switzerland? They could conquer a city, be a useful bunch of mercenaries in feudal wars and help Alpine passes for months to racket the dwellers. But conquering thousands of squared kilometers was just impossible.

Besides, if you refer yourself to the annals of the cities of Aix, Marseilles, Toulon and Frejus, as well as those of the lords of Uc de Blaye, Maison de Fos and Riculfe they do mention the attacks from the Fraxinet pirates but no conquest.

These are the confirmed attacks: Toulon, Antibes, Nice, Grand St Bernard (several times), Novalaise (906), Sisteron (911), Embrun (919), Asti (919), Acqui (919 and again 935), Apt (923), Aix (923), Marseille (923), Grenoble (930), Arles (934) and St Gall (939). They were a scourge, but a small one, easily defeated in combat by alliances of the region's noblemen (which admittedly were rarely allied).

Finally, try not to refer to a book published in 1834, it doesn't look too serious. History has changed a lot since.

Source: SENAC Ph. Provence et piraterie sarrasine, Paris: 1982.
PICARD Ch. La mer et les musulmans d'Occident au Moyen Age (VIIIe-XIIIe sicle), Paris: 1997.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 19:24
Hello to you all
 
First of all, Arabs did conquere France, the problem was that they were defeated. Septimania was ruled for some 50 years. It was organized into civil administration on the Ummayyad style and had their own mayors and governor of the province. They still lived in parts of Southern France till 800 AD. Al-Andalus military command had a network of posts on the regions that bordered those conquered territoy and established outposts as far as Autun in Burgundy. Anbasa's death after Autun ushered a civil war between Berbers and Arabs in it the Arab population of Septimania were massacred and Arabs retreated to the lower parts of Al-Andalus. Abdurrahman Al-Ghafiqi distroyed the Berber revolt in 731 but died the next year in Tours. Abdul Malik Al-Fihri had another much bigger Berber revolt on his hand, a revolt that declared Septimania, Catalonia and Northern Spain independent. Not only this but Franks were gaining land quickly. These rebellions helped the Visigoth declare rebellion. Extremadura, Algarev, Seville, Catalonia Asturias and Galicia all rebelled. After securing all the first three, the great Berber revolt of 740 happened. In those years, the Governor of Al-Andalus had with him registered some 80 thousand men other than volunteers. But just ten years later, Yusuf Al-Fahri, the first and only Abbasid governor had only 10000 men to fight Abdurrahman I. When the Abbasids withdrew, all Qahtani tribes and many Berbers withdrew also. Berbers again rebelled.
 
My point here is the reconquista isn't what some have portrayed as a group of renegade rebells living in the mountains and defeated larger and much stronger armies. It was the other way around, they were defeated and chased to the mountains and when those armies withdrew the took their chance in the power vacuum that resulted from that evacuation and built their powerbase.
 
Anyway Leo, here is an article proving that early caliphs really wanted to withdraw from Iberia desite the continuous strain of victories:
 
Also, I never said that Arabs conquered Switzerland, I said they raided it and controlled it for a very long time.
 
Finally, whats wrong with a 19th century book written by a professional historian who knew Arabic very well and was a scholar in the language as well as Latin and French? Last time I checked Gibbon didn't have even half the credentials this guy has and yet his much older book is still a masterpiece of Roman history?
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 22:25
Originally posted by Al Jassas

 
First of all, Arabs did conquere France, the problem was that they were defeated. Septimania was ruled for some 50 years.

There is a difference between Septimania and France. Septimania is more or less what is nowadays Languedoc-Roussilllon. That's less than 10% of the territory. During the 8th century an important process was taking place, the shift from South to North of the economic and political centre of gravity of the "country". Aquitaine was quickly loosing its might to the princes of the North and it is likely that it had to pay tribute to the Ummayyads for a while.

Al-Andalus military command had a network of posts on the regions that bordered those conquered territoy and established outposts as far as Autun in Burgundy. Anbasa's death after Autun ushered a civil war between Berbers and Arabs in it the Arab population of Septimania were massacred and Arabs retreated to the lower parts of Al-Andalus.

Once more you are mistaking a raid with a conquest. There was a raid on Autun but by no mean a "network of posts". Do you have any idea where Autun is? It is over 400km from Septimania through mountainous terrain. They would have had less than 30 year to build this network with a handful of men and no central authority.
 
My point here is the reconquista isn't what some have portrayed as a group of renegade rebells living in the mountains and defeated larger and much stronger armies. It was the other way around, they were defeated and chased to the mountains and when those armies withdrew the took their chance in the power vacuum that resulted from that evacuation and built their powerbase.

First of all the Reconquista lasted much more than that. What is interesting is the following. In both case a relatively strong conquering state (Visigoth and Ummeyyad) took over Iberia but due to the distances, maintaining a centralised command in both cases proved impossible. Weakened by internal strife both states were defeated by tribes. The difference being that the Ummeyyads did not collapse the way the Visigoth did.
The rebellion finding refuge in the mountains is a basic of Iberian history from the Roman conquest to this day. Now nobody ever said the contrary, the Muslims were defeated by their incapacity to leave behind old quarrels and to actually colonise the lands they had conquered. True, the Asturian strongholds were populated by Christians having fled the Muslim rule but that does not make them a "strong" and "large" army.
 
Also, I never said that Arabs conquered Switzerland, I said they raided it and controlled it for a very long time.

Err can you explain what you mean by "controlled" but "not conquered"?

Finally, whats wrong with a 19th century book written by a professional historian who knew Arabic very well and was a scholar in the language as well as Latin and French? Last time I checked Gibbon didn't have even half the credentials this guy has and yet his much older book is still a masterpiece of Roman history?
 
Gibbon is held by many (not me) as a great mind, the way he explains things is interesting. But when it comes to actual facts, I don't think you'll find him in the footnotes of any book.
Regarding French scholars of the 19th century, specially the first half, they are mostly rubbish. No need to be a brilliant mind to remark that the book was conveniently written 4 years after the start of the conquest of Algeria by the French.
Clearly in the mind of the historian, making the enemy more prestigious (conquered the whole of Europe) as well as more of an enemy (attacked us while we were weak and minding our own business). Not all 1800s history books are rubbish, but you'd better check their sources and their conclusions twice before relaying them. History is after all a field where it is easy to cheat and as such very interesting for propaganda.
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2008 at 22:46
By the way just remembered something. When you say "It was organized into civil administration on the Ummayyad style and had their own mayors and governor of the province. They still lived in parts of Southern France till 800 AD" what is it you mean exactly?

1. the civil administration was always left to locals by the conquering Muslims except when the city had resisted. It was the first thing Muslim conquerors did when they entered a city: sign a treaty, whereby a part of the taxes would go to the kalif but the inhabitants' religion and life would be respected. So if by Ummeyyad civil administration you mean handing the administrative powers to the locals, then we agree, but clearly it does not mean much.

2. The Muslim presence in Septinamia was ended almost totally by 737 by Martel's invasion. By 777 Charlemagne was under Barcelona, I don't see how the Muslims could have remained in charge until 800. So the Muslim rule in Southwestern France lasted something like 20 years, not 50.

Finally, you should be careful when you mention the size of the armies, there is next to no evidence to support the figures you put forward. It is not even sure that they give an idea of who had comparatively the biggest army.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2008 at 00:18
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Which author you mean, I mentioned the books and authors he took information from above also I mentioned that I read a translation of the work by Ferdinand Keller above.


You still haven't told me who the scholar behind this theory is, or what his credentials are, and if you don't tell me with the next post I'll just give up and dismiss all these claims. Sigh.

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Finally, whats wrong with a 19th century book written by a professional historian who knew Arabic very well and was a scholar in the language as well as Latin and French? Last time I checked Gibbon didn't have even half the credentials this guy has and yet his much older book is still a masterpiece of Roman history?

Everything is wrong with it, since being a professional historian in the 19th century was not the same as being a professional historian now. Gibbon too is outdated and today his work is of mainly artistic and historiographical value, it's not by any means considered a masterpiece of Roman history as far as modern historical scholarship goes. What you are saying here severly weakens my confidence in your claims.


Edited by Reginmund - 12-Apr-2008 at 00:27
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