Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Romanian ethnic identity and language

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>
Author
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Romanian ethnic identity and language
    Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 23:28
Because I've noticed recently how narrowmindedness and Balkan nationalism reached the heights of denying such a reality, I decided to open a thread on it.
 
 
It was claimed that Romanians did not realize they speak a language called Romanian until late in the 19th century.
 
Francisco della Valle, 1532: "...si dimandano in lingua loro Romei... se alcuno dimanda se sanno parlare in la lingua valacca, dicono a questo modo: Sti Rominest ? ".
Today, in modern Romanian "ştii romneşte?" stands for "do you know/speak Romanian?"
 
Pierre Lescalopier, 1576: "Tout ce pays [i.e. Wallachie] et Moldavie et la plupart de Transivanie a t peupl des colonie romaines du temps de Traian lempereur... Ceux du pays se disent vrays successeurs des Romains, nomment leur parler romanechte, c'est--dire romain".
"romneşte" is in Romanian an adverb meaning "Romanian" (see the previous example for usage)
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 30-Mar-2008 at 23:43
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 13:25

Roman and Vlahata is a legend written in Slavonic at the end of the 15th century, beginning of the 16th, probably by some scholar at the Moldavian court. It is part of a larger collection of texts, containing also the legend of Dragoş, a noble from Maramureş the founder of Moldavia and a chronology of Moldavian rulers from Dragoş to Bogdan III (1504 - 1517; the chronology ends with his reign but his death is not mentioned).

The legend contains the story of two eponymous brothers, founders of two nations: the "Romans" from Italy and the "Romans" from Balkans. I will translate only its beginning, which is relevant enough for the topic of this thread.

"Two brothers, Roman and Vlahata, fled from the city of Venice. Being of Christian faith, they fled from the persecution of heretics against the Christians and came to the city called Old Rome and founded a city after his name: Roman. And they lived their life, they and their descendants, until pope Formosus left Orthodoxy for the Latin law. And after abandoning the law of Christ, the Latins founded a new city and called it New Rome and called the descendants of Roman to join them. But the descendants of Roman didn't want that and started a great war and they didn't abandon their faith in Christ. And from that time it was war until the reign of Ladislaus, the king of Hungary."
 
The text contains many anachronisms and confusions, spanning for several centuries (Formosus' mission in Bulgaria ended in 867/868, and Ladislaus is most probably Ladislaus IV, 1272-1290, as the legend continues with a repelled invasion of the Tatars which could be identified with the one from 1285), but it reflects a mythical Roman origin of the Romanians. I will refer to it in a future post.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 31-Mar-2008 at 14:38
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 14:11
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Because I've noticed recently how narrowmindedness and Balkan nationalism reached the heights of denying such a reality, I decided to open a thread on it.
 
 
It was claimed that Romanians did not realize they speak a language called Romanian until late in the 19th century.
 
Francisco della Valle, 1532: "...si dimandano in lingua loro Romei... se alcuno dimanda se sanno parlare in la lingua valacca, dicono a questo modo: Sti Rominest ? ".
Today, in modern Romanian "ştii romneşte?" stands for "do you know/speak Romanian?"
 
Pierre Lescalopier, 1576: "Tout ce pays [i.e. Wallachie] et Moldavie et la plupart de Transivanie a t peupl des colonie romaines du temps de Traian lempereur... Ceux du pays se disent vrays successeurs des Romains, nomment leur parler romanechte, c'est--dire romain".
"romneşte" is in Romanian an adverb meaning "Romanian" (see the previous example for usage)
 


Finally......

It was claimed, i claimed it based on specific source, that the inhabitants of the Danubian Principalities did not realize that what they were speaking was of Latin origin, until the 17th century. The two  accounts you brought are very interesting indeed, but it does not function as a counter argument. It does not contradict Lucian Boia ( Romania:Borderland of Europe):For historians of the Renaissance , the Romanians were direct descendants of the Romans. Your accounts are those of outsiders. The question rised is whether Romanians themselves (Wallachians and Moldavians) knew that what they spoke was of Latin origin.

Originally posted by Chilbudios


Roman and Vlahata is a legend written in Slavonic at the end of the 15th century, beginning of the 16th, probably by some scholar at the Moldavian court. It is part of a larger collection of texts, containing also the legend of Dragoş, a noble from Maramureş the founder of Moldavia and a chronology of Moldavian rulers from Dragoş to Bogdan III (1504 - 1517; the chronology ends with his reign but his death is not mentioned).

The legend contains the story of two eponymous brothers, founders of two nations: the "Romans" from Italy and the "Romans" from Balkans. I will translate only its beginning, which is relevant enough for the topic of this thread.

"Two brothers, Roman and Vlahata, fled from the city of Venice. Being of Christian faith, they fled from the persecution of heretics against the Christians and came to the city called Old Rome and founded a city after his name: Roman. And they lived their life, they and their descendants, until pope Formosus left Orthodoxy for the Latin law. And after abandoning the law of Christ, the Latins founded a new city and called it New Rome and called the descendants of Roman to join them. But the descendants of Roman didn't want that and started a great war and they didn't abandon their faith in Christ. And from that time it was war until the reign of Ladislaus, the king of Hungary."
 
The text contains many anachronisms and confusions, spanning for several centuries (Formosus' mission in Bulgaria ended in 867/868, and Ladislaus is most probably Ladislaus IV, 1272-1290, as the legend continues with a repelled invasion of the Tatars which could be identified with the one from 1285), but it reflects a mythical Roman origins of the Romanians. I will refer to it in a future post.


Again, very interesting. But i fail to see a specific "ethnic identity" here. All i see is reference to religion, sth natural for the Middle Ages:Being of Christian faith.......of heretics against the Christians.....left Orthodoxy for the Latin law.......the law of Christ......they didn't abandon their faith in Christ........  What i see is a religious conflict , aka Latins ( Catholics) vs the Romans (Orthodox).

Also, i would like to see the exact word for nation, as you used it in your prologue.



Edited by Spartakus - 31-Mar-2008 at 14:13
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 14:30
Originally posted by Spartakus

It was claimed, i claimed it based on specific source, that the inhabitants of the Danubian Principalities did not realize that what they were speaking was of Latin origin, until the 17th century. The two  accounts you brought are very interesting indeed, but it does not function as a counter argument.
You're wrong, the two accounts are a counter-argument to another claim of yours:
Originally posted by Spartakus, in another thread

"Romanian" language, which was non-existent, in terms of identity and name,until the 19th century"
It was thus proven that Romanian language was existent in terms of identity and name since 16th century. But you were already told that in the thread where you made your initial claim. Here, however, I dedicate enough space to bring any number of evidences, without worrying of being off topic.
 
I will address Boia in another post. I don't have time now to compile my answer.
 
Again, very interesting. But i fail to see a specific "ethnic identity" here. All i see is reference to religion, sth natural for the Middle Ages:Being of Christian faith.......of heretics against the Christians.....left Orthodoxy for the Latin law.......the law of Christ......they didn't abandon their faith in Christ........  What i see is a religious conflict , aka Latins ( Catholics) vs the Romans (Orthodox).
Like it was told, I will refer to it later. For now it is a precious mention of an acknowledged "Romanity" of Romanians dated at the latest in 1517.
 
Also, i would like to see the exact word for nation, as you used it in your prologue.
But the text of the legend does not contain the word "nation", why would you want to see such a thing? (anyway in original Slavonic is about the "Romanovich" which stands for "descendants of Roman" as I have translated throughout that text). 
Anyway on a more careful reading I think it rushed to conclude the brothers were the founders of both nations. I believe now they were only the founders of "Old Romans", the "New Romans", though developing in parallel, seem on a more careful reading unrelated to the former.
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 31-Mar-2008 at 14:33
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 15:10
One more correction: the name "Danubian principalities" is wrong for this period. It came into being only in the latter part of the 18th century and it functioned until the mid-19th century when Wallachia and Moldavia united as Romania.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 16:09

Originally posted by Spartakus

Originally posted by Cezar

Spartakus, after reading your posts I think that what you try to say about Romanian language and Romania is basically this:1. Until 19th century almost nobody around was aware that romanian was the language they spoke. According to you they didn't even spoke romanian, they must have been some kind of multi-lingual community. Every child born in that area was a linguist, though illiterate. The elites, in they arrogance or lazyness, decided to learn and use only romanian.
No. I argue that Romanians did not know that what they spoke was of Latin origin until the 17th century. I argue is that we cannot actually know whether Romance speakers were always the majority in the area of lower Danube ,between 270 AD and 14th century.The rest are clearly your interpretation, not my actual words.
Well, you might have noticed that I have a tendency of not being totally serious, sometimes. Don't take it personal I have nothing against you or the Greeks.

Let's see, lower Danube area you say. Well, that's not Romania, it's only a part of it. Indeed, there are no written records of what was the language spoken around before let's say 14'th century, yet there must have been a something. What else could have been, some kind of a Babel area?
 2. When nationalistic movements started (~1848) some hotheads managed to spread the idea that there is a language that ties moldavians, wallachians and transylvanians (how about dobdrudjans, banatians, or bucovinans?)
I cannot understand how you came up with this. It's all your interpretation. I never mentioned the 1848 revolution. Again, what i argue is that Romanian ethnogenesis did not started until the 17th century, with the discovering by Romanian themselves (Wallachians and Moldavians) of their Latinity. Discovering their Latin uniqueness was essential for the rise of Romanian nationalism during the second half of the 18th century and the 19th century, but it did not happen until the 17th century.
So, what are you suggesting, that before 17th century the romanians thought of themesleves as being something else?

And it is not my fantasy:
Boia clearly says The Romanians discovered their Latinity in the seventeenth century.

You can see that also in the history of the word Romania:

From A.Drace-Francis ,p.8-9:
The term Romania is also quite old, but not in Romanian. In the early Middle Ages Western writers used it to refer to the Eastern Roman Empire (Wolff 1948).After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, this usage continued to designate more limited areas of the Empire, particularly the area lying south of the Balkan and east of the Rhodope mountain ranges, but sometimes for the whole of the Ottomans' European possesions, for which it's inhabitants,and the Romanians, used Rumeli.Romania was still commonly used in this sense by European writers in the early niniteenth century.But it's use in either internal or foreign writings for any of the lands north of the Danube was virtually non-existent before 1800.
So, the first document written in Romanian (Neacsu's letter to Hans Benkner of Brasov - 1521) come out of nowhere?
I have nothing against the author you quote, but the highligted statement is plainly moronic. To suggest that an ethnic group doesn't identify itself for about a thousand years and then suddenly becomes aware of it's identity is really not very clever. The illiterate people might not have known they were speaking a latin derived language but they sure must have realized that they were not speaking what strangers to that land spoke.

Originally posted by Cezar

3. Suddenly, all those people who by then weren't even aware that they were romanians decide that they were romanians
They were not being aware that their language was of Latin origin, until 17th century , for the elite, and until the late 18th century for the peasantry.
That doesn't change the fact that they were speaking a romance language. And that he language was common to all the area inhabited by romanians.
Originally posted by Cezar

4. This nationalistic move was the greatest success, especially in Transylvania, where the magyars didn't managed to convince everyone that they were in fact hungarians.(the Eteria failed twenty years earlier to make the wallachians think they were greeks).
Again no. In Transylvania was where Romanian ethnogenesis was given it's initial boost.
What? That's inconsistent with your previous statements.
What are you implying, that romanians started in Transylvania then spread outwards?


Edited by Cezar - 31-Mar-2008 at 16:13
Back to Top
Spartakus View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
terörist

Joined: 22-Nov-2004
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4489
  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 22:48
Originally posted by Chilbudios

You're wrong, the two accounts are a counter-argument to another claim of yours:
It was thus proven that Romanian language was existent in terms of identity and name since 16th century.


But these sources are from outsiders, not from Romanian themselves. And i cannot figure anything specific, since there are no translations provided, concerning the exact context of these accounts.

 
Originally posted by Chilbudios

 
For now it is a precious mention of an acknowledged "Romanity" of Romanians dated at the latest in 1517.


This Romanity can in fact be nothing more than a simple reference to a religious differentiation, not an ethnic one.
 
Originally posted by Chilbudios


But the text of the legend does not contain the word "nation", why would you want to see such a thing? (anyway in original Slavonic is about the "Romanovich" which stands for "descendants of Roman" as I have translated throughout that text). 
Anyway on a more careful reading I think it rushed to conclude the brothers were the founders of both nations. I believe now they were only the founders of "Old Romans", the "New Romans", though developing in parallel, seem on a more careful reading unrelated to the former.


Wait a minute here. You use the term "nation", whose meaning is speculative, when referring to the Modern Age, and more specifically, to the Nation-States. You need to clarify in which context you use it. Concerning the Romanovich , drawing a line back in order to show my identity,here descendants of Rome, is not  an ethnic characteristic. Ancestry reference can be seen in the Ancient World,and, especially, in tribal organizations.This can be seen in one of the older texts in the world:


THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO
ST MATTHEW
CHAPTER 1
Christ is born of MaryShe conceives by the power of the Holy GhostOur Lord is named Jesus.

1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of aDavid, the son of Abraham.
  2 aAbraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat bJudas and his brethren;
  3 And Judas begat aPhares and bZara of Thamar; and Phares begat cEsrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
  4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and aNaasson begat Salmon;.........


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/1
 

Originally posted by Chilbudios


One more correction: the name "Danubian principalities" is wrong for this period. It came into being only in the latter part of the 18th century and it functioned until the mid-19th century when Wallachia and Moldavia united as Romania.


I am aware of that, but i think it's the best way of reference in Moldavia and Wallachia.
Originally posted by Cezar


Indeed, there are no written records of what was the language spoken around before let's say 14'th century, yet there must have been a something. What else could have been, some kind of a Babel area?


From what i've read,i came to the conclusion that in the area of the Lower Danube  Slavic and Romance speakers co-existed, before the 14th century. This can be seen, firstly, from the South-Slavic loans to Romanian. In order to receive linguistic loans ,you need to have some kind of communication. Back in the Middle Ages, the only way possible to do that was to live or to have strong relations with inhabitants who spoke a different language. Secondly ,this can also be seen in the similarities of the social structure, between the Principalities and their Slavic neighbours: I quote from Keith Hitchins' The ROmanians:1774-1866 :

In fundamental ways the Romanians stood apart from the South Slavs and Greeks as they developed between the fifteenth and eighteenth centuries.

Stood apart and develop, verbs which combined with the next quote from the same source:

They were, to be sure,Orthodox ,and, along with the Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks, they belonged to the Byzantine religious and cultural world.Like the South Slavs, too, they owed ecclesiastical allegiance to the Greek patriarch of Constantinople and until the 17th century they used Slavonic as the official language of the church and of the prince's chancellery.Until well into the eighteenth century they also shared an ecclesiastical high culture and an agrarian economic and social order common to the region as a whole.

Give an image of a principality heavily influenced, both in terms of language and of social organization by their South-Slav neighbors.About Mr Hitchins credibility:


Professor Hitchins specializes in Southeastern Europe; Rumania; Hungary; and Central Asia. His current research focuses on the social and economic development of Rumania, history of the Tajiks; the old regime in southeastern Europe, 1350-1800. Selected publications include The Idea of Nation: The Romanians of Transylvania 1691-1849 (Bucharest: Scientific Pubiishers, 1988); "Modern Tajik Literature," in E. Yarshater (ed.), Persian Literature (New York: Columbia Lectures on Iranian Studies, 1988) 454-75; and Rumania 1866-1947 (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1994).


http://www.ideals.uiuc.edu/handle/2142/2321

Originally posted by Cezar

So, what are you suggesting, that before 17th century the romanians thought of themesleves as being something else?


Whatever they thought, i believe it was in a religious, professional etc context,aka Medieval, not in an ethnic one.

Originally posted by Cezar

So, the first document written in Romanian (Neacsu's letter to Hans Benkner of Brasov - 1521) come out of nowhere? I have nothing against the author you quote, but the highligted statement is plainly moronic. To suggest that an ethnic group doesn't identify itself for about a thousand years and then suddenly becomes aware of it's identity is really not very clever. The illiterate people might not have known they were speaking a latin derived language but they sure must have realized that they were not speaking what strangers to that land spoke.


The author i quoted does not claim that Romanians was inexistent as a people. I use it's data, which are the most specific and detailed i could find up until now. What these data show, as the other authors i quoted, is that their reference points ,in culture and language, were not the same with those of the 19th century, during the rise of the Romanian nationalism.

Originally posted by Cezar

That doesn't change the fact that they were speaking a romance language. And that he language was common to all the area inhabited by romanians.


Nobody says that they spoke sth different than a Latin originated language.I quote Mr Hitchins:
for they spoke a language derived from Latin

My point is that although for us it is a fact, it is not necessary that it was a fact for them too,always before the 17th century.

Originally posted by Cezar


What? That's inconsistent with your previous statements.
What are you implying, that romanians started in Transylvania then spread outwards?


Let me clear sth out: i am a modernist. For me , the process of ethnogenesis is only a recent phenomenon, that's why my continuous objections over the use of the terms "ethnicity" and "ethic identity". I do not believe in the historical continuation of nations, έθνη, because these are modern constructions. In other words, i do not argue that Romanians started from Transylvania and spread all around. I argue that their development , in the context of the modern construction of ethnos, took it's inicial boost from that area. I do not deny their existence as such, i deny their existence in it's ethnical context.
 
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2008 at 23:54
Originally posted by Spartakus

But these sources are from outsiders, not from Romanian themselves.
Wrong. What I emphasized with italics are Romanian words which means they are sourced from Romanians themselves. Those accounts prove as best as it can be proven that Romanians called their language Romanian in the 16th century.
 
And i cannot figure anything specific, since there are no translations provided, concerning the exact context of these accounts.
Tough luck, you can't hope to participate in a serious discussion about Romance languages identity without knowing a bit of Italian or French. You have to take my word for it Wink
 
This Romanity can in fact be nothing more than a simple reference to a religious differentiation, not an ethnic one.
Not true. In that story there's city called Old Rome, another one called new Rome, a man named Roman founding another city after his name and having descendents wearing his name (the Romanovich). All these are cities and people. Besides the Catholicism is clearly refered in that text either as heresy or as Latin law (rite). The religious schism is between "Old Romans" and "New Romans".
 
Wait a minute here. You use the term "nation", whose meaning is speculative, when referring to the Modern Age, and more specifically, to the Nation-States. You need to clarify in which context you use it.
The term "nation" is widely used in ancient, medieval and early modern texts. I suggest you should start with Tertullian's Ad Nationes LOL 
 
Concerning the Romanovich , drawing a line back in order to show my identity,here descendants of Rome, is not  an ethnic characteristic.
It was not claimed such a thing. I said quite clearly: "For now it is a precious mention of an acknowledged "Romanity" of Romanians dated at the latest in 1517."
 
I am aware of that, but i think it's the best way of reference in Moldavia and Wallachia.
No, the widely used term for this era is "Romanian principalities": http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=%22Romanian+principalities%22
 
Spartakus, I see you continue the same petty techniques of debating about things you do not know or distorting the claims your reply to. Consider this as a friendly warning, my next action won't be that friendly.


Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Apr-2008 at 00:06
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:08
Originally posted by Spartakus

Let me clear sth out: i am a modernist. For me , the process of ethnogenesis is only a recent phenomenon, that's why my continuous objections over the use of the terms "ethnicity" and "ethic identity". I do not believe in the historical continuation of nations, έθνη, because these are modern constructions. In other words, i do not argue that Romanians started from Transylvania and spread all around. I argue that their development , in the context of the modern construction of ethnos, took it's inicial boost from that area. I do not deny their existence as such, i deny their existence in it's ethnical context.
That pretty much sums your point, I guess: ethnogenesis is only a recent process.
Like I stated before, I'm not an expert regarding ethnogenesis of nations, mine included. I rely mostly on logic and I find such theory improper. Maybe one could (forcefully)apply this concept regarding nations but not regarding ethnic identity. It's much more logic to see ethnicity generating nationalism/nations than to think those concepts simply arouse in the minds of the people from some instant. The idea you adhere to is not compatible with the existence of ancient rooted people, like Romanians, Greeks, Albanians, Scotts, Irish, etc. Even newcomers (relatively) on the lands, like Bulgarians, Hungarians, Serbs, Czechs, Solvaks, etc. won't have lasted unless they have had a "national consciousness" of some kind.
So, the idea that people were aware of their apartenance to an ethnic group throughout the centuries is far more consistent with later development of nations/nationalism than to think these sprang out of some kind of amorphous groups.
The fact that different ethnic groups shared some teritory for a period doesn't negate the fact that differences lasted. In the case of Romania, I thinkTransylvania is the best example supporting the idea of coexistence of people fully aware of their separate ethnicity.
*έθνη - how do I read thisConfused?
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:51

Another claim which was made on Romanians is that they did not realize they spoke something different than Slavic until the 17th century, and that they were culturally Slavs until the 17th century (an even bolder version of this claim decreed that the elites were culturally Slavs until the 17th century while the masses were culturally Slavs until the early 19th century!).


That Romanian masses were "culturally Slavs" is easily dismissed. Since they were largely illiterate they did not have access to the Slavonic culture. Their language is distinctively noted to be Romanian since 16th century, their habits, their mythology, their cuisine, their costumes, etc. are recorded in the past few centuries and with all the parallelisms that can be found in the neighbouring areas, they have an undeniable specific. This should be enough to note that Romanians couldn't be culturally Slavs (moreover that Slavs do not have a unitary culture of their own, what is Slavic culture anyway?)


For this claim it was invoked Lucian Boia's Romania: Borderland of Europe. He writes at p. 31 about Romanians: "they were fully integrated in the Slavonic culture of the East. Their cultural reference points were not Latin but Greek and Slavic". Here two things should be noted. One, is that Boia never argues Romanians were culturally Slavs. Two, is that he speakes only of the literate culture, the written culture. This is obvious also in an analogy he draws on the same page: "The Poles were Slavs but belonged through their Catholicism to the Latin cultural space" (there was no Latin vernacular at this time in Europe; moreover concluding that Poles were culturally Romans is blatantly stupid).

But Boia makes some inaccurate claims (we shouldn't be too critical on him, he's not really a historian but a historiographer, but that's why we shouldn't value his work too much in terms of accuracy, rather on the general perspectives it provides). On the same page he claims: "The Romanians discovered their Latinity in the seventeenth century. This was the period when the Slavonic language, which had been omnipresent in the Church, in chancery documents in the earliest historical writings, began to give way to Romanian".

Here are few issues where I find Boia to be wrong:
1) Romanians were not all Orthodox. Not only but especially in Transylvania Catholicism and Protestantism were spread in the Romanian population.

2) Romanians' "cultural reference points" were not the same throughout the territory inhabited by them. The Hungarian influence in Transylvania or the Polish influence in Moldavia is undeniable and both these influences would have been characterized to be "Latin" by Boia.

3) It is well known the earliest texts written in Romanian (especially religious texts) are not from the 17th but from the 16th century. I'll review the ones I know of:
- 1521: The letter of Neacşu Lupu, a Wallachian merchant from Cmpulung to Hans Benkner, the Saxon Burgermeister of Braşov
- 1551-1553: The Tetraevanghel (a gospel book containing all the four gospels of the New Testament) from Sibiu. It has bilingual text (written in parallel both in Slavonic and Romanian). It was translated about a Slavonic gospel book (printed in Sibiu in 1546) and Luther's Bible.
- 1560: Christian Question, a canonical writing of Christian doctrine published in Braşov. Among its sources was the Lutheran Catechism printed in Sibiu in 1544.
- 1570: Coresi's Missal, printed in Braşov
- 1571-1575: A religious songs collection printed in Cluj. This is the first Romanian text printed in Latin alphabet (it uses Magyar orthography)
- 1573-1578: The Scheian Psalter, it also contains the Atanasian Symbol in an incomplete form. It was published in Moldova.
- 1577: The "Slavo-Romanian" Psalter printed in Braşov. It has bilingual text (written in parallel both in Slavonic and Romanian).
- 1582: Palia from Orăştie. It contains several books of the Old Testament. Among its sources is the Pentateuch printed by Gspr Heltai and some scholars assume even a version of Vulgata.
- 1590-1602: The Easter Homily printed somewhere in northern Hunedoara.
- 1594: Lord's Prayer written by the Moldavian boyar Luca Stroici and given to the Polish scholar Stanislaw Sarnicki who will publish it in Krakw. The text is in Latin alphabet (it uses Polish orthography). In about the same period another version of it will be printed in Frankfurt by Hieronymus Megiser. Luca Stroici is an interesting character for our topic. When serving under Iancu Sasul (1579-1582) he signed the official papers with Latin letters, his signatures reading "Iskal Stroicz, anno 1580" and "Stroicz logofet, 19, anno 1580" (note the Polish orthography).

After this review several conclusions can be drawn:
- In writing Slavonic began to give way to Romanian in the 16th century, not in 17th
- though the majority of texts were written in Cyrillic, the first Romanian text written in Latin alphabet dates from the 16th century
- especially in Transylvania, the "cultural reference points" are not only Greek and Slavic but also Hungarian, German and consequently Latin

4) The Romanians learnt of their mythical Roman origins also in the 16th century, not in the 17th. I already mentioned a legend recorded at the Moldavian court at the beginning of the 16th century which drew the entire Moldavian line of rulers from a mythical founder named Roman, fleeing from Venice (sic!) together with his brother, Vlahata. This, however, is not an isolated example. Here are a few more:
- Nicolaus Olahus, a Transylvanian Humanist of Romanian (Wallachian?) extraction, received in 1541 a diploma from Ferdinand of Habsburg. The diploma also said (I didn't find the original text, I'm translating after a translation): "your co-national Vlachs do not have a humble origin at all. Indeed, it is known they descend from Rome, the city of the emperors, and that they were settled in a very rich side of Dacia which is called Transalpina to stop the attacks of the ancient enemies in Roman provinces. That's why even today they call themselves Romans in their language."
- in 1561/1562, the Moldavian ruler Jacob Heraclides, better known as Despot Vodă (i.e. Despot Voivod), wrote a proclamation to his people letting them know "con voi valenti homeni et gente bellicosa discesi dali valorosi Romani, quali hanno fatto tremer il mondo" (the reporting source is Italian). As it can be seen in mid 16th century a Moldavian ruler told his people that they descend from the Romans.
- a similar episode can be extracted from the papal correspondence three decades later. In 1592/1593, trying to organize an anti-Ottoman alliance, the pope Clement VIII wrote to his messenger Alessandro Komulović to rally the Wallachians and the Moldavians to their cause "riducendo loro anco a memoria, ch'essi sono colonna d'Italiani" (remind them they are a colony of Italians)
I believe it's obvious that in political mythology and propaganda of the 16th century, the Romanians started to be regarded as descendants of the Romans and they also knew about it. I don't believe this was contributing in anyway to their ethnicity at that moment, though. Imagine a peasant who knew his father was John and his grandfather was George, that he was told by the those recruiting him that he is decendant of the Romans and he is brave and valiant as they were. But certainly the Romanian elites started to cultivate this new neo-Roman identity, which will explode in the next century (the phenomenon observed by Boia).



Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Apr-2008 at 13:02
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 14:31

Keith Hitchins (who - by the way - uses the term "Romanian principalities") argues clearly that "In fundamental ways the Romanians stood apart from the South Slavs and Greeks as they developed between the fifteenth and eighteenth centuries." The paragraph (p. 1-2) continues with "During this long period of Ottoman domination in South-eastern Europe they succeeded in preserving their political autonomy and with it their traditional social and economical structures". So, while there were influences from the neighbours, according to Hitchins, the principalities retained nevertheless their traditional specificity. And the predicate "stood apart" leaves no doubt about the existing differences.

Maybe here we should mention the Romanian customary law (and perhaps sometimes suggested to be more than that, an entire local specificity of habits and unwritten rules) mentioned in sources explicitely as "ius Valachicum/Valachorum", "mores Olachorum", "ius et consuetudo Valachorum", "antiqua et probata consuetudo Valachorum" etc.


Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Apr-2008 at 14:39
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 14:51
So how do you explain many Bulgarian Slavonic inscriptions then?
.
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 15:53
In a similar way like you'd have to explain the usage of Latin in Poland or Germany, whose vernaculars are not even Romance languages. As we're at this analogy, saying that the Polish or German commoner was fluent in Latin is also an absurd claim. The bilingualism between Romanian and Bulgarian (due to geographical proximity, which is paralleled by other bilingualisms like between Romanian and Hungarian) and the Slavonic culture in Romanian principalities are two different phenomena.

Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Apr-2008 at 15:58
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 15:59
Anton, I think you should understand that there are inscriptions in Cyrillic alphabet. That doesn't mean all of them are Slavonic (whatever should that mean).
Dacian inscriptions were found written in Roman alphabet. Do you think that would mean that dacians were latins?
Until recently, in Moldova they used cyrillic alphabet to write in "moldavian". There's no such thing as moldavian language, it's still romanian no matter what politicians say. And the people in Bassarbia are romanians too. Of course there are a lot of ucrainians, russians and other slavic and non-slavic people living there but that's the result of USSR's policy.
In Transylvania there are inscriptions in Latin. I mean ancient Latin. That doesn't make the hungarians and/or the Romanians living there latins.
Certainly you must realise that written testimony is not always available in common/local language. Do you think Gesta Hungarorum was written by a roman?
Many of the churches built in Romania way after the official introduction of the latin alphabet have cyrillic inscriptions on the paintings. And they are not restored ones but new buildings.
Many inscriptions around Europe, in non romance speaking regions are written in Latin. Think of Poland, for example.
So, trying to argument that romanians were mainly slavs before the 16th century is not quite a valid point.
Certainly, our language bears the influence of slavic language (around 20% of the vocabulary I think) but that doesn't make us slavs or our language slavic. That might suggest that slavs were coexisting with romanians during the period when the language was still young. The moment it was well defined and spoken, outside inflences had a hard time finding their way into the vocabulary.
The best example are Hungarian and Turkish. Both were official languages yet they failed to significantly influence the Romanian.
Also, the Slavic languages around Romania and Hungary strongly support the idea of ethnic identity, something Spartakus seem to deny.
My point is that Romanian and the romanians were formed somwhere between the IInd and IXth century and since then they stuck both to their language and their ethnic identity.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 16:29
"Many inscriptions around Europe, in non romance speaking regions are written in Latin. Think of Poland, for example. So, trying to argument that romanians were mainly slavs before the 16th century is not quite a valid point."
 
No, I do not argue that at all. :) However, Latin in Poland is a language of religion and probably culture. Bulgarian language in north of Danube is not only a language of Orthodox church. Prhases like "let dog f..ck his wife" can hardly be found in a religious text can they? Tongue
.
Back to Top
Cezar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 09-Nov-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1211
  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 16:41
Originally posted by Anton

"Many inscriptions around Europe, in non romance speaking regions are written in Latin. Think of Poland, for example. So, trying to argument that romanians were mainly slavs before the 16th century is not quite a valid point."
 
No, I do not argue that at all. :) However, Latin in Poland is a language of religion and probably culture. Bulgarian language in north of Danube is not only a language of Orthodox church. Prhases like "let dog f..ck his wife" can hardly be found in a religious text can they? Tongue
Bulgarian language in north of Danube was well known during Ceausescu when we watched your TV broadcasts since our program was only two hours a day. On the south - wetsern side of the country Bulgarian was in a tough competition with Serb and Hungarian and was almost always on the losing side. They did had better programs than yours, especially Yougoslavia.
About that phrase, maybe you could pm me the bulgarian version, I don't know if English is proper to understand what you wanna say.
Anyway, I'm away from here until Monday (at least) because of the NATO summit so I won't be able to reply until then.
*what have become of the Arghirov brothersConfused?
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 16:51

I was talking about Bulgarian language after Ottoman conquest. The prase I cited was in some of Wallachian inscriptions. Will try to search it. In any case I think it is difficult to deny the romanization of plenty of Bulgarians happened past 500 years. Just exactly as bulgarization of many Vlachs during second Bulgarian tzardom.

.
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 17:01

Anton, I do not know about what inscription are you talking about. Can you make a more ample presentation on the presence of Bulgarian north of Danube? From all I could tell, it could be there were communities of Bulgarians there, likewise there were communities of Germans (Saxons), Jews, Tartars, Armenians, Gypsies, etc.

Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 17:29
I mean all those letters that you modestly call slavonic, although there is no such language :)
 
 
.
Back to Top
Chilbudios View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 11-May-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1900
  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 17:36

Anton, if you expect me to read three books to find an inscription (perhaps a one-liner) about dogs, then probably you don't expect any answer soon on that question of yours. In any case, thank you for your bibliographical addition.

As for terminology, it is not invented by me ( http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=%22Slavonic+language%22 ). If you prefer I can use OCS (abbreviation for Old Church Slavonic), though this language was used also for other texts than the religious ones.

On a first glance I noticed some voivodal documents. Why do you wonder about them being in Slavonic?
 
On my earlier note of Slavic communities, for instance the toponymy surrounding Braşov suggests the existence of a south-Slavic community which was eventually assimilated as now it is gone. (e.g. Şcheii Braşovului, şchiau in Old Romanian - cognate with sclavus - referred to south Slavs such as Bulgarians and Serbs). If an inscription in Bulgarian would be found here, it would be nothing extraordinary, just another evidence for something which is already known.


Edited by Chilbudios - 01-Apr-2008 at 17:49
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.