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The Macedonian Question.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 19:33
I wonder if the name issue is connected with this:
 
And talking of education in schools, from Greece (p. 57 in the report):
 
In late 1992, shortly after the republic of Macedonia became
independent, when emotions were running very high, a history
teacher told a sophomore class that Macedonians were
"gypsies, with no culture." One boy asked why the teacher had
said that; "aren't they human beings like us?" The student was
sent to the superintendent's office; later his parents were
called in and warned to prevent the child from making such
remarks.



Edited by Chilbudios - 17-Apr-2008 at 19:47
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 14:01
Is that some sort of argument?

The fact is that noone is denying that there is a people that speak a slavic language and live in Macedonia.  The fact is also that it's yet unacceptable for this people to take full credit of the term Macedonian, since, basically they were neither native not even a majority in Macedonia.
And being called 'macedonian' does actually mean that they take exclusive use of the term, regardless of any signatures and official agreements.
Because if someone tells a third person, an average american let's say, and tells him "I'm Macedonian", what will he understand.
What we simply require is that they be called something else, even if their name includes the term macedonian in it. "Slavmacedonian" is actually a very fair solution, but they don't accept it. We accepted even "new-macedonians" and "upper-macedonians", which apparently all lead to the use of the word "macedonian" in everyday use, but they don't accept it.
I honestly can't understand your persistence, and for that matter of any third party who opposes us. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel that political agendas have brainwashed the nonetheless indifferent thirds, who somehow think of themselves as 'thinking people' (HAH!).
Bye for now, as it will be some time before enter the forum again (=happy easter!)

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 14:36
Is that some sort of argument?
Did you make any argument? All your claims were refuted repeatedly. Their identity is called "Macedonian" not "SlavoMacedonian", not anything else. You can't change that, it is already there, people are born and living this identity every day. There are numerous cases in this world where two different communities shared names and symbols (by the way, have you ever heard in UN acts of New-Congolese, Upper-Dominicans, Slavmoldovans?). For some reasons, some Greeks are unable to cope with that.
 
The fact is also that it's yet unacceptable for this people to take full credit of the term Macedonian, since, basically they were neither native not even a majority in Macedonia.
Typical propaganda and distortion of history. The today FYROM-ers are native in Macedonia because they are born in a country called Macedonia. You want to go back in past? How many Greeks were on the territory of today Greek Macedonia 100 years ago? Let me tell you, not even half of the population. The rest where Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, etc. Where was the Byzantine theme of Macedonia? Which were the boundaries of Roman province of Macedonia? Which were the boundaries of Macedonia after Phillip II's conquests (or during the reign of Alexander the Great)? So many questions, one certain answer -  modern Greece has no "historical right" for claiming this name or this history only for its own. Many Balkan people have the same "right" as the Greeks to claim this name (or others from "Macedonian history") for their country, for an airport, for an ethnicity or simply a regional community.
 
I honestly can't understand your persistence, and for that matter of any third party who opposes us. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel that political agendas have brainwashed the nonetheless indifferent thirds, who somehow think of themselves as 'thinking people'
Absolutely the same can be said about you and your fellow Greeks supporting this position.
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 15:02
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 15:58
Tsk tsk.
Their identity is called "Macedonian" not "SlavoMacedonian", not anything else

By whom?
My friend, this very thing is the question.
Typical propaganda and distortion of history. The today FYROM-ers are native in Macedonia because they are born in a country called Macedonia. You want to go back in past? How many Greeks were on the territory of today Greek Macedonia 100 years ago? Let me tell you, not even half of the population. The rest where Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, etc. Where was the Byzantine theme of Macedonia? Which were the boundaries of Roman province of Macedonia? Which were the boundaries of Macedonia after Phillip II's conquests (or during the reign of Alexander the Great)? So many questions, one certain answer -  modern Greece has no "historical right" for claiming this name or this history only for its own. Many Balkan people have the same "right" as the Greeks to claim this name (or others from "Macedonian history") for their country, for an airport, for an ethnicity or simply a regional community.

You are actually misinterprateting my words, to suit your argument. I don't care about where the various 'Macedonias' lied in the past, or wether Philip did this or that.
1st) you agree that slavmacedonians were not a majority in macedonia, as there was no majority in Macedonia. So, either all people of Macedonia must be called Macedonians or none. And since most have dropped the use of 'Macedonian' as a national identity, the latter should be the case.
2nd) the term Macedonia predates the coming of slavs to Macedonia. which therefore deprives the slavs of privilleged handling concerning the name.

Absolutely the same can be said about you and your fellow Greeks supporting this position.

I wasn't reffering to you actually, but much more generally.
But nonetheless, I myself never showed or tried to show any special "intellectuality" and "superiority" in thinking to others. I never called anyone stupid (perhaps I've called certain arguments stupid), and never been arrogant.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:20
Originally posted by xristar

By whom?
My friend, this very thing is the question.
By themselves, and by more than 100 countries worldwide.
 
You are actually misinterprateting my words, to suit your argument. I don't care about where the various 'Macedonias' lied in the past, or wether Philip did this or that.
1st) you agree that slavmacedonians were not a majority in macedonia, as there was no majority in Macedonia. So, either all people of Macedonia must be called Macedonians or none. And since most have dropped the use of 'Macedonian' as a national identity, the latter should be the case.
This is a non sequitur, there're no such "name rules". Who stops the northern Greek to call themselves Macedonian, anyway?
 
2nd) the term Macedonia predates the coming of slavs to Macedonia. which therefore deprives the slavs of privilleged handling concerning the name.
Absurd. How many Macedonians have "Slavic" genes? How many Greeks or Thracians or whatever ancient Balkan populations are actually ancestors to today FYROM Macedonians? Slavs are the speakers of a Slavic language, not some mythical roaming people.
Do you deny the Americans (the inhabitants of the US) their name because it predates the coming of immigrants which form the today American nation?
 
I wasn't reffering to you actually, but much more generally.
But nonetheless, I myself never showed or tried to show any special "intellectuality" and "superiority" in thinking to others. I never called anyone stupid (perhaps I've called certain arguments stupid), and never been arrogant.
More generally you included me and insinuated that I'm brainwashed and that my self-image of "thinking" person would be somehow unfounded. Which is, no matter how you try to put it, a personal attack.


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 16:31
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:34
Who stops the northern Greek to call themselves Macedonian, anyway?

We don't use it to define nationality.
We use as a geographical definition. In this way anyone is allowed to use it.

More generally you included me and insinuated that I'm brainwashed and that my self-image of "thinking" person would be somehow unfounded. Which is, no matter how you try to put it, a personal attack.

I didn't have you in mind, but generally the western public opinion, which sees us greeks etc as backward balkanians, that occupy themselves with trivial issues. If you want to include yourself in this category be my guest.

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:38
Absurd. How many Macedonians have "Slavic" genes? How many Greeks or Thracians or whatever ancient Balkan populations are actually ancestors to today FYROM Macedonians? Slavs are the speakers of a Slavic language, not some mythical roaming people.
Do you deny the Americans (the inhabitants of the US) their name because it predates the coming of immigrants which form the today American nation?


I'm not speaking of genes. You can't determine genes. So, FYROMians are slavs, because -as you also said-, they speak a slavic language.
The term 'America' did not predate the modern americans. It actually came with them.
How would it be if some white americans called themselves Sioux and Navajo, because they live on the same territory?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:42
 
Originally posted by xristar

We don't use it to define nationality.
We use as a geographical definition. In this way anyone is allowed to use it.
Who cares how you use it or you want to use it, you're allowed to. You're not respecting this right for other people.
 
I didn't have you in mind, but generally the western public opinion, which sees us greeks etc as backward balkanians, that occupy themselves with trivial issues. If you want to include yourself in this category be my guest.
I agree with those saying that this name issue is a manifestation of Balkan backwardness. You actually did launch a personal attack. In this case I expect an apology.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:50
Who cares how you use it or you want to use it, you're allowed to. You're not respecting this right for other people.

Actually you're wrong. The term slavmacedonian is used very much in Greece. It means a macedonian slav. Greece does not deny the right to anyone to use the term with a geographical meaning.
I agree with those saying that this name issue is a manifestation of Balkan backwardness. You actually did launch a personal attack. In this case I expect an apology.

Your fault, not mine.
You ask me to take back what I said? Why? Did I stop believing it? What changed the last hour?
For the sake of maintaining a civilized manner in this thread, I'm sorry if you felt insulted.
But you know my oppinion.-

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by xristar

I'm not speaking of genes. You can't determine genes.
Actually you can. It is called DNA. Welcome to 21st century.
 
 So, FYROMians are slavs, because -as you also said-, they speak a slavic language.
Yes, which makes absolutely irrelevant the question when people came.
 
The term 'America' did not predate the modern americans. It actually came with them.
How would it be if some white americans called themselves Sioux and Navajo, because they live on the same territory?
You need to get your facts straight. The term America is first attested on 1507 map, at a time when North America was virtually void of colonies.


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 17:01
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 16:54
Actually you're wrong. The term slavmacedonian is used very much in Greece. It means a macedonian slav. Greece does not deny the right to anyone to use the term with a geographical meaning.
Today, for a fact, Greece denies FYROM to be named "Republic of Macedonia" and its inhabitants to be named "Macedonians". Greece has no right to impose anyone how will they use this name.
 
Your fault, not mine.
You ask me to take back what I said? Why? Did I stop believing it? What changed the last hour?
For the sake of maintaining a civilized manner in this thread, I'm sorry if you felt insulted.
But you know my oppinion.-
So believing Greece is wrong about this name issue is now a "fault"? How can you even claim that other people are brainwashed. LOL


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 17:04
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 17:06
You need to get your facts straight. The term America is first attested on 1507 map, at a time when North America was virtually void of colonies.

I knew you would say something like that.
Again I ask you, is the term 'America" native american? No. Now the fact that it was invented by some italian in 1507, doesn't change the fact it's a later european term.
How can I be wrong when today, for a fact, Greece denies FYROM to be named "Republic of Macedonia" and its inhabitants to be named "Macedonians"?

Yes, because in this case the term is used with as a national definitions.
So believing the Greeks are wrong about this name issue is now a "fault"? How can even you claim that other people are brainwashed. LOL

It's your fault that you felt offended, not that you hold an oppinion.
My criterion for the category of people I mentioned before isn't their oppinions, but their way of thinking, namely their arrogance. It's your call how you yourself categorize yourself.

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 17:20
I knew you would say something like that.
Again I ask you, is the term 'America" native american? No. Now the fact that it was invented by some italian in 1507, doesn't change the fact it's a later european term.
So what? You earlier said that FYROM doesn't have the right to use the name "Macedonia" because it predates it. I provided a valid example, that of America. And America is not Europe. Do I really need to remind you that Slavs and Greeks are both "Europeans" and that Macedonia is also "European"?
No offense, I find all this argumements against the name non-sensical. Many are looking for various reasons and "definitions" for why someone should not use that name, without even bothering that they won't stand a reality check.
 
Yes, because in this case the term is used with as a national definitions.
Again I say, so what? No one conditions Greeks how they use this name, they shouldn't condition anyone else.
 
It's your fault that you felt offended, not that you hold an oppinion.
My criterion for the category of people I mentioned before isn't their oppinions, but their way of thinking, namely their arrogance. It's your call how you yourself categorize yourself.
This is not what you have said.
"I honestly can't understand your persistence, and for that matter of any third party who opposes us. I hope I'm wrong, but I feel that political agendas have brainwashed the nonetheless indifferent thirds, who somehow think of themselves as 'thinking people' (HAH!)."
Quit it, please.

 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 17:24
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 17:34
There are some people who believe their thought is superior to ours=>
They peristently call the greek cause childish and idiotic, and greeks brainwashed people who see their propaganda as the truth
YET
They fail to explain why our cause is idiotic and why FYROM's cause is a serious cause of national selfdetermination, and ignore the much more aggressive FYROMian propaganda=>
I feel they are one sided folllowing political agendas, propably without realizing it, as the information they have access to is one sided=>
I question the superiority of thought they believe to have.

When I posted my oppinion, I didn't have you in mind. I actually had specific people in mind, but not you. If you want however to be included to this category, I can't stop you.

I'm not continuing this anyway, I seriously have to leave, I'm already quite late.


Edited by xristar - 18-Apr-2008 at 17:38

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 17:42
I don't believe my thoughts are superior. I didn't call Greeks brainwashed people, but I did call the Greek cause stupid (like I told Flipper earlier, the press did it, too!) and I replied that what you said about me and those "indifferent thirds" it can be said about you (saying it) and some other Greek people. I did not ignore FYROM's propganda, on the contrary I suggested repeatedly that re-education is needed. I read arguments from all sides and concluded by myself that Greece should not request FYROM to change its name.
 
Can I feel attacked now by your earlier remarks? Thank you.
 
 


Edited by Chilbudios - 18-Apr-2008 at 17:48
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2008 at 20:17
Originally posted by Chilbudios

concluded by myself that Greece should not request FYROM to change its name 
 
You just changed the name yourself Wink
 
Anyway, Greece wants a name that will distinguish FYROM from the Greek province of Macedonia and is willing to compromise over it. If FYROM does not want to, Greece reserves the right to make its opinion heard, if not respected.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 10:43
I've been away for some time. I guess what Yiannis says sums up everything very well, weather someone agrees with it or not.

Furthermore this has been the official stance of Greece for sometime now. It shouldn't suprise anyone unless some didn't really give attention to the issue or did not seriously the practical results of the case.

Also, Chibuldios, if you remember well in a private discussion we had in the 13/02/2008, i cleared this out to you and you confirmed that. I don't know why the veto which was not unexpected raised such a reaction. It is a matter of opinion/understanding etc etc.




Edited by Flipper - 30-Apr-2008 at 11:02


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 10:58
Originally posted by Chibuldios


 Really? Claiming that Macedonia is Greek for 3000, 3500 or 4000 years is not an alteration of historical facts? Claiming that FYROM-ers usurp Greek heritage is not an alteration of historical facts? And Pakistan was not renamed to Macedonia. Let's see that first, and then we'll see Greece's reaction to it. I wonder what will happen if Turkey will ask to change its name to Macedonia. LOL


On page 12 of this thread you have a detailed answer to that comment. Just remember that one of the oldest Greek cities lies in Macedonia, Greek language, religion and culture has been existing in that area in some of the timeframes you're mentioning. Lets not repeat ourselves again.

http://allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=23916&PN=12

As for Pakistan, it did not rename itself to Macedonia but Burusho people believe they descend by people comming from ancient Macedonia. No Greek has a problem with that and the reasons are obvious if you compare the cases. The problem with FYROM exists before the creation and renaming of the state.

If Turkey did the same, you would probably see the same reaction. Historically there have been various issues of similar nature between Greece and Turkey, that tend to be resolved now and then.




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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2008 at 12:21
Originally posted by Chilbudios

I don't believe my thoughts are superior. I didn't call Greeks brainwashed people, but I did call the Greek cause stupid (like I told Flipper earlier, the press did it, too!)


Yes, but it was certain press, like other journalists may have stated the opposite. So, as I said it is a matter of opinion. I could recall the opinion of the head of the Macedonian institute in Bulgaria, who has as a Balkanoid a better view on the balkan matters than a journalist far away from the balkans.


Greece has no right to impose anyone how will they use this name.


By international law, they probably have, since as you see in the agreement, they have the right to block the entrance. Please, lets no repeat these things.

At the time speaking the politicians of FYROM has started to express a more moderate view that a common acceptable name will solve the issue. That is a thumb up for them if they come to an agreement with each other. We just need to wait and see.


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  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2013 at 22:12
This may well be the most nutty, stupid, hatred filled sites ever!

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