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The Macedonian Question.

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HEROI View Drop Down
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Macedonian Question.
    Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 18:38
The soon to come sumit of NATO in Bukurest is expected to Invite the (Adriatic card*) Trio of Countries to join NATO,Albania ,Croatia and Macedonia.
 
For Croatia is almost certain the invitation,and is to a degree almost certain for Albania to,
But not for Macedonia,who still has its poroblems going on with Greece regarding its very name which Greece objects to it being Macedonia.
Untill now Macedonia has been called FYROM internationaly,and Greece has threatened to use its veto as a right of an NATO member to deny entry to Macedonia unless it changes its Constitutional name.This are the points.
 
1-) Is Greece right in influencing the Constitution of another indipendent country?
 
2-) Is Macedonia right in claiming historical heritage from ancient Macedonia?
 
3-)Is Greece right in using its NATO membership to deny others entry by veto,and not based on the merits?
 
 
In my opinion Greece is little to blame on this particular issue in the Balkans.Macedonians can not simply try to create an historical heritage on the shoulders of other people who have a sense of history and national belonging for many centuries now.
 
By doing this they are bound to have their way blocked by the big guys of History and Culture in that part of Europe, which are Greece and Bulgaria,and also the Albanians.
 
That does in no way mean that the Nation of Macedonia should not exist,no ,why ever not? Nations have all been created at a time,once the population inhabiting the particular administrative region start to have a sense of national belonging then we are in front of an foregone conclussion,we are dealing with a new nation.
 
To blame thou,in this instance are the politicians and academics in Macedonia,which put at the hart of their new Nation a glorious ancient history,making Alex the Great a Macedonian and at the same time a Slavic person,making Mother Teresa a Macedonian (by ethnicity) simply based on the fact that she was born in Skopje(at a time when it was the ottoman empire anyway) going completely against any hard historical proof,and even contemporary history,as is the case with Mother Teresa.So this kind of behaviour is unacceptable,and Greece i think is right that when faced with such  ludicrous claims,to push for this new nation to have a different name.
 
I expect your reactions guys,but cool reactions please ,lets not get on fire on this topic.Big%20smile


Edited by HEROI - 25-Mar-2008 at 18:39
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:10
This should be moved to the minefield.

1-) Is Greece right in influencing the Constitution of another indipendent country?
 
2-) Is Macedonia right in claiming historical heritage from ancient Macedonia?
 
3-)Is Greece right in using its NATO membership to deny others entry by veto,and not based on the merits?

1)Constitution? Yeah, if that constitution includes offences to Greece.
2)No
3)If based on merits, then none (not even Croatia), would be invited at all.

EDIT: Right at this moment, now, discussions are held in USA between Greece and Fyrom on the name. Perhaps we'll have developments in the next hours.


Edited by xristar - 25-Mar-2008 at 19:11

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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:26
Originally posted by xristar


3)If based on merits, then none (not even Croatia), would be invited at all.

 
I am not sure about Croatia because i dont know very well its present state of army and politics.But i absolutely agree with you that Albania and Macedonia are no where near the standarts required to join NATO.Albania has a near inexistent army.while Macedonian Army i think does not have helicopters even.
Inviting this countries to join NATO is made on the basis of peace and stability in the Balkans,not of having extra allies in the NATO.
Anyway not being ready for the standart aquired for the membership,does not mean that any other exsuse can be used against that membership.
If Greece would have objected to Macedonian membership simply on the basis that it does not fulfil the standarts it would have to do the same for Albania,and probably Croatia,and that means risking the stability of the region,so my question still stands.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:28
By the way,what offences to Greece has the Macedonian constitution?
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 19:44
You know already. A name.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 20:42
is not it the right of every country to choose how to call itself on its constitution?
Thats not an offence made to Greece,but its a claim of historical,political,and territorial claims.
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 20:55
Originally posted by HEROI

1-) Is Greece right in influencing the Constitution of another indipendent country?
2-) Is Macedonia right in claiming historical heritage from ancient Macedonia?
3-)Is Greece right in using its NATO membership to deny others entry by veto,and not based on the merits?

1.No

2. Yes, Macedonia is right to claim historical heritage from ancient Macedonia, because its territory includes northern regions of ancient Macedonia.

3. No
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  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 21:03
Originally posted by HEROI

is not it the right of every country to choose how to call itself on its constitution?
Thats not an offence made to Greece,but its a claim of historical,political,and territorial claims.


When Greece already has these historical claims plus the new state would definetley want a border change if they had the power, we have all the rights to be insulted.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 21:55
Roberts,unless we are to into endless debates,claiming to be Alexander's decendant and at the same time claiming to be Slavonic,does not give them to much credit as far as historical heritage would be concerned.Alexander was not a Slav,and ancient Macedonians certainly did not speak Slavonic.The fact that slavo-macedonians speak slavonic,and have slavonic identity,completely rules them out of any historical claim to ancient Macedonia.
 
But as i said,thats not the problem,lets leave history to historians,the problem is that slavo-macedonians today,in through their politicians and their academics put at the very hart of their national identity the ancient macedonian heritage,thats the problem.
 
As for historical evidence sugest quite plainly that Macedonian are Bulgars,or very simmilar people.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 22:21
Originally posted by Vorian


Originally posted by HEROI

is not it the right of every country to choosehow to call itselfon its constitution?
Thats not an offence made to Greece,but its a claim of historical,political,and territorial claims.
When Greece already has these historical claims plus the new state would definetley want a border change if they had the power, we have all the rights to be insulted.


Common now let us be realistic there is no way that this would ever be possible in the first place; thus I do not think that the Macedonian government ever will actually initiate that nor have those aspirations. Greeks live in northern Greece thus I do not think either that they would stand for that, nor would NATO stand for another war, especially including two of its members. A reduction in arms usually is what is aspired by joining NATO too, look at Germany they had to rent Ukrainian transports to get their regiments to Afghanistan.


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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 22:25
Originally posted by HEROI

Roberts,unless we are to into endless debates,claiming to be Alexander's decendant and at the same time claiming to be Slavonic,does not give them to much credit as far as historical heritage would be concerned.Alexander was not a Slav,and ancient Macedonians certainly did not speak Slavonic.The fact that slavo-macedonians speak slavonic,and have slavonic identity,completely rules them out of any historical claim to ancient Macedonia.

But as i said,thats not the problem,lets leave history to historians,the problem is that slavo-macedonians today,in through their politicians and their academics put at the very hart of their national identity the ancient macedonian heritage,thats the problem.


As for historical evidence sugest quite plainly that Macedonian are Bulgars,or very simmilar people.



I do not think either that they have DIRECT ancestral heritage, however, they do have territorial heritage due to actually living in northern Macedonia. I am sure that the ancient Macedonians contributed to the contemporary gene pool, too. Furthermore, to avoid Greek fears perhaps announcing that they are a Slavic "ethnic" (majority I guess with pronounced minorities) nation with shared (with Greece) Macedonian territorial heritage. The name itself should not be changed I do not see how it offends Greece as Greece itself could use the name too if they wished.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 22:36
Originally posted by HEROI

The fact that slavo-macedonians speak slavonic,and have slavonic identity,completely rules them out of any historical claim to ancient Macedonia.
 
This is absolutely wrong statement. All this does not rule them out in claiming herritage coming from their lands. Other thing is disgusting way how do they do that.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 22:48
How could it be the wrong statement?
Slavo-Macedonians who speak Slavonic (Bulgarian in fact) and have Slavonic identity,i am repeating are completely ruled out of Ancient Macedonia Heritage.
Or at least they have no more right to  that claim then the Bulgarians.Is there an Indeginious component in them,yes for sure,so what?
The problem as i said is the historical claim of the Macedonian establishment,which is puting at the foundations of this new nation the historical heritage of an ancient people which have nothing in common.In this light Greece is right,ancient Macedonia includes a big part of Greek territory.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 06:17
Originally posted by Roberts


2. Yes, Macedonia is right to claim historical heritage from ancient Macedonia, because its territory includes northern regions of ancient Macedonia.


Once I was pointed out in this same forum that I'm exhagerating when I believe that people will think ancient Macedonia was in that country.

The northern regions were aquaired during Philips time. Originally Macedonia was not such a large area.

Here are the ancient regions of Macedonia.

Pre-Philip II:

# Upper Macedonia


Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
ORESTIS Kastoria province, Greece
TYMPHAEA Grevena province, Greece
ELIMEIA S. Kozane province, Greece
EORDAEA N. Kozane province, Greece
LYNKESTIS Florina province, Greece
PELAGONIA Monastiri (Bitola), FYROM

# Lower Macedonia


Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
AMPHAXITIS Kilkis province, Greece
ALMOPIA Pella province, Greece
PIERIA Pieria province, Greece
BOTTIAEA Emathia province, Greece
KRESTONIA N. Thessalonike province, Greece
MYGDONIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
ANTHEMOUS S. Thessalonike province, Greece




Expansion under Philip II:
# New Macedonia


Ancient Name: Modern Location:
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BISALTIA E. Thessalonike province, Greece
SINTIKE Serres province, Greece
ODOMANTIS Drama province, Greece
EDONIS Kavalla province, Greece
THASSOS Kavalla province, Greece
CHALKIDIKE Chalkidike province, Greece
SOUTHERN PAEONIA Gevgeli province, FYROM



From all these regions you have 2 regions only in FYROM and those are Southern Paeonia and Pelagonia.

So my question is what name is more right Macedonia or Paeonia with that logic?


Edited by Flipper - 26-Mar-2008 at 06:20


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 06:19
Originally posted by HEROI

By the way,what offences to Greece has the Macedonian constitution?


Not just the name. Earlier you have the religious symbol on the flag which they were forced to remove.


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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 07:18

Flipper but the Roman province of Macedonia was much larger, not to mention the Byzantine theme which was rather in today Turkey.

How do you define the expansion of Macedonia under Philip II? His conquers were certainly greater than that, in north-east for instance, he advanced about to Hebrus, today Plovdiv (Bulgaria) was founded as Philippopolis after his name.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 07:51
Originally posted by Chilbudios

Flipper but the Roman province of Macedonia was much larger, not to mention the Byzantine theme which was rather in today Turkey.

How do you define the expansion of Macedonia under Philip II? His conquers were certainly greater than that, in north-east for instance, he advanced about to Hebrus, today Plovdiv (Bulgaria) was founded as Philippopolis after his name.


That's exactly what I wanted to say. The borders from Philip and after were altered and the Byzantine theme was a crazy deplacement. In other words what happened later was a result of administrative and expansional actions. Those borders had nothing to do with the original 4 Macedonian sub-Kindoms nor with areas where the Makedones used to inhabit. Even those are much smaller compared to Macedonia of the classical age.

In some extremes, considering the size of the Kindom during Alexander, many countries could rename themselves to Macedonia.


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 08:00
Originally posted by Anton

This is absolutely wrong statement. All this does not rule them out in claiming herritage coming from their lands. Other thing is disgusting way how do they do that.


I can agree with that since you very correctly point out the nature of this in your third sentence.


Edited by Flipper - 26-Mar-2008 at 08:00


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 08:14
Originally posted by HEROI

Thats not an offence made to Greece,but its a claim of historical,political,and territorial claims.


I agree with you. There are hundreds of places around the world having Greek names e.g Athens, Sparta etc. It is the nature of naming that makes this case different.


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 10:47
Originally posted by Flipper

I can agree with that since you very correctly point out the nature of this in your third sentence.
 
Yeah, but they way becomes even more disgusting under Greek pressure.
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