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Oldest civilization in the world?

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    Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 13:30
Does anyone know the top 5 oldest civalization s in order ???

I thought it was .....
      1.sumerian
      2. Iranian
      3. Egyption
      4. Chinese
      5. Greek
Plz correct me if im wrong
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 20:57
Maybe this is it!!!


http://www.discoveryofatlantis.com/


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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 00:36

1.  Sumerian, c. 3500 BC

2.  Egyptian, c. 3300 BC

3.  Elamite, c. 3200 BC

4.  Meluhhan, c. 2700 BC

5.  Marian/Eblaite, c. 2500 BC

Honorable Mention:

6.  Subarian, c. 2400 BC

7.  Hattian, c. 2300 BC

8.  Chinese, c. 2200 BC

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 08:47
Any dictionary will give the following meaning for "civilization':

"An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions."

Now based on the following finds I'd go with No 5 being on top of the list.

The Most Ancient Stone Art in Europe - Kokkinopilos (33.000 B.C..).
At a red ground layer in the Epirus position of Kokkinopilos the most ancient stone art of Europe and Mediterranean, made from small rock blades of 33,000 B.C., was discovered. [Papadopoulou F.. "Η Εποχή του Λίθου στην Ήπειρο" (The Stone Age in Epirus) , Δωδώνη publications]

The Most Ancient Shipping in the world - Frahthi of Argolida (7.000 B.C.).
The Frahthi cave hid many surprises to the scientists. There, apart from the most ancient burial of Europe (10,000 B.C.), relics of prehistoric fishery were found and foremost : opsidianus pieces of 7,000 B.C. (Note that the volcanic material of opsidianus exists only in Milos island. Opsidianus of the same age has been found in Halkidiki and Hoirokitia of Cyprus...). This stands as a serious proof that Greeks already were travelling with ease all over the Aegean sea.[Jacobsen T. 17.000 Years of Greek Prehistory , Scientific American, 234 (1976)]


Agricultural cultivation in Nea Nicomedia(7.000 B.C.).
2,000 decarbonated wheat seeds lie among the rest findings of N. Nicomedia, proving that these distant ancenstors of ours already knew how to cultivate the ground from the 7th millenium B.C... N.Nicomedia in the Macedonian land together with Hoirokitia of Cyprus constitute the oldest cities with increased settlements structure and organization in the world. During the same age (at the proceramic stage) Knossos, Argissa, Elateia and other cities also prosper.


The Sesklo civilazation (5,000 B.C.).
The first 'complete' European civilization is birth of  Thessalia's land. Sesklo civilization with its acropoles is characterized from its landhills and the beautiful ornamenting - ceramic with linear jewels and stone stamps with the maeandric geometric shapes (at the same age Orhomenos, Nea Makri and a bit later Diminio, Saliagos etc. also prosper).

www.ancientgr.com
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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 08:52
Civus = city.
Generaly speaking in the field of History, the emergence of cities is seen as the begining of civilisation.

However, if you like your revised definition, there is cave art in Southern Africa that is several tens of thousands of years old.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 10:27

Yes, and what is also not mentioned in his description is "writing" and "complex political and social institutions".  Nothing resembling the kind of bureaucratic and social stratification one finds in the earliest historic period like that of Mesopotamia or Egypt.  Sesklo may have been large by European standards, but it would not compare with Uruk in terms of size, complexity, architecture, or record-keeping.  Population studies show that Uruk was probably the first city, while Sesklo would still be considered a village. 

A good definition of a city can be found here.

[url]  http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/images/first_cities(settle _down).htm[/url]

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 12:01
Sharrukin

True, there is a great size difference when compared and your comment that Sesklo would be considered a village may be correct. But we must take under consideration the fact that Sesklo pre-dates Uruk by more than a millenium. Since Uruk has been dated to the end of the 4th millenium while Sesklo has been dated to early 5th.
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  Quote Faran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 15:35
Originally posted by Sharrukin

1.  Sumerian, c. 3500 BC

2.  Egyptian, c. 3300 BC

3.  Elamite, c. 3200 BC

4.  Meluhhan, c. 2700 BC

5.  Marian/Eblaite, c. 2500 BC

Honorable Mention:

6.  Subarian, c. 2400 BC

7.  Hattian, c. 2300 BC

8.  Chinese, c. 2200 BC

 

 

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/older.htm  Iran is really replacing Mesopotamia as the oldest civilization.

 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 23:11

But we must take under consideration the fact that Sesklo pre-dates Uruk by more than a millenium. Since Uruk has been dated to the end of the 4th millenium while Sesklo has been dated to early 5th.

Sesklo (c. 6700-5200 BC) is older than Uruk, but that is irrelevant.  The truth of the matter is that there was very little progress thoughout the history of Sesklo, while Uruk (founded, c. 5000 BC) began as a village, but urbanization took place, and by c. 3500 BC, it became the first city.  Because of the boon in the economic life of Uruk and surrounding areas, begun c. 3800 BC which spread Urukian cultural influence throughout the Middle East, a need to create an adequate system of book-keeping developed resulting in the creation of writing by the time Uruk became a city.  Monumental architecture was already in evidence since about 4000 BC. 

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/older.htm  Iran is really replacing Mesopotamia as the oldest civilization.

Anybody reviewing that site, one is left with the impression that Iran is the origin of humanity, the Aryans, and all facits of civilization, and these are actually the authors conclusions at the end of his pseudo-treatise, and therefore should be viewed with extreme skepticism.  He does present some facts but they are drowned into so much misconception and factual mistakes, that finding the truth is too laborious for the casual reader.   This author's agenda is loud and clear, and so I don't recommend this site for consideration.

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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 23:37

the chinese civilization actually started around 3000 bc as the huangdi tribe.

http://www.greatchinese.com/emperors/table.htm

the source is, however, in chinese.

but it's the only existing ancient civilization in the world today. all others are gone already.

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 00:05
India has gone? Persia has gone? Wtf?
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 00:49
Originally posted by coolstorm

but it's the only existing ancient civilization in the world today. all others are gone already.
I'd like to believe when he actually said they were gone he meant they are gone on a civilization-free-holiday trip to Hawaii !!
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 01:21

the chinese civilization actually started around 3000 bc as the huangdi tribe.

Archaeologically, there is no evidence of civilization in China, until the time of the Xia.  There is some evidence of urbanization in at least one site identified as a Xia capital, but nothing before that.  Full urbanization seemed to have occurred during Shang (Yin) times.  As for "the huangdi tribe", the original myth speaks of an individual legendary first king, named Huangdi.  There is nothing to suggests that the individual can be made into a tribe. 

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 01:25
Or maybe they retired to some sort of old age pensioner Valhala for over the hill civilisations...."Oi! Hykos, could ya pass us some of Harapa's papadams!"

Civiliasations don't so much die as evolve and get abosorbed by their desendants.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 03:26

When we can say that this city was very old or had a very large population that Archaeologists have found something there.

Do you know how many thousands of people were needed to build it: The 7,500-year-old ziggurat of Silak



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri
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  Quote coolstorm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 10:16

Archaeologically, there is no evidence of civilization in China, until the time of the Xia

the huangdi tride is also known as the xia. its another name is haung xia.

it started around 3000 bc.

that's what the people call themselves even today. the xia people.

the greater china area in chinese, which includes mainland china, hong kong, and taiwan is also called zhen xia, which means central xia.



Edited by coolstorm
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 10:19
When we can say that this city was very old or had a very large population that Archaeologists have found something there.

Do you know how many thousands of people were needed to build it: The 7,500-year-old ziggurat of Silak

The links associated with the Wikipedia article show that Sialk was founded about 5000 BC but the ziggurat dates to only c. 2800 BC.  Nevertheless, it was the largest known as well as the most ancient ziggurat.  It had been speculated since the 70's that ziggurats may have originated in Iran, since the earliest indirect evidence of ziggurats in Mesopotamia only date from the time of Sargon of Akkad, c. 2300 BC. 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:20

I think Sumer was more civilized than Elam but the Elamite civilization was older than the Sumerian civlization and I also think Susa (and maybe Anshan) was older than Uruk.

Of course Susa has changed its location through history:

Elamite Susa (Shush) where the 3250 years old ziggurat of Chogha Zanbil is, Achaemenid Susa [45 km west of the Elamite one] where the 2500 years old Apadana palace of Darius the Great is and the Parthian or Sassanid city of Susa (Shushtar=better than Shush) [20 km east of the Elamite one], where 1800 years old Sassanid dams and bridges are.

But Archaeologists have found another city of Susa which is at least 3000 years older than the Elamite Susa -> 6,000-Year-Old Ziggurat Found

At the center of the city, a ziggurat was built of which two floors still exist. A wall surrounded it, which is the inner wall of three concentric walls in Dur Untash. Between the inner wall and the middle wall several temples belonging to different Elamite divinities were built. The outer city wall was about 4 km long enclosing an area of approximately 100 hectares. The royal quarter was situated adjacent to a major city gate some 450 meters east of the ziggurat. In this area, a group of three major buildings with large courts surrounded by lengthy halls and rooms were excavated. Beneath one of theses buildings (Palace I), five underground tombs were found similar to those of Haft Tappeh (Kabnak).



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  Quote MURAT BEY BAYAT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 16:00

1.  Elamite, c. 4200 BC

2.  Sumerian, c. 3800 BC (but the Sumerian was more civilized than Elamite)

3.  Egyptian, c. 2900 BC (first dynasty 2920- 2770)

4.  Meluhhan, c. 2700 BC

5.  Marian/Eblaite, c. 2500 BC

6.  Subarian, c. 2500 BC

7.  Hattian, c. 2500 BC (see turkey history)

8.  Chinese, c. 2200 BC

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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 22:24
Cywr Said, "India has gone? Persia has gone? Wtf?"

India is accounted for.  The Meluhhan civilization mentioned by Sharrukin, a trading partner of the Sumerians, is now believed to be the Harappan or Indus valley civilization.  However, I thought it pre-dated 2700 B.C., now that we have found older ruins at Mehrgarh.
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