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Riots in Tibet
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Riots in Tibet
    Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 13:14

Dalai Lama condemns 'cultural genocide' in Tibet


for more...  here

Edited by ulrich von hutten - 16-Mar-2008 at 13:14

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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 20:41
Originally posted by beorna


By the way, if Tibet will ever become free and independent, I hope the people will have the chance to install a democratic government and do not change a pseudo-communist tyranny against an autocratic and theocratic monarchy.


Thumbs%20Up completely agree

Originally posted by Zagros


Not looked at the Sun for since I was 14 and that was for the titties on page 3.

The extent of German involvement in the proliferation of WMD to dictatorships is vast.


i re-read your response serveral times and found no source. so unless you can back up your claims other than with conspiracy theories, please refrain from tracking off the topic. if you have something to add to this, open a new thread. your a mod and know the procedures.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 20:51
There are plenty of sources, you can use google, just as well as I (I hope). 

And Ulrich, intelligence service manipulation of mass media is not a theory - it's fact - who do you think fed the bogus claims of Iraqi WMDs to the press who whole heartedly endorsed it at the time?
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Posts: 646 		  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 21:37
Ive noticed Western Europeans and North Americans are very honest, simple minded people. They eat up and believe everything their governments tell them.

Tomorrow if XYZ country has weapons of mass destruction, they will believe it. These countries dont really give a damn about "freedom of Tibet". They care to destabilize China and keep it tied up.

Otherwise, Kurdistan would have been independent by now.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:26
Yes but just because America does more for Tibet indipendence then Kurdistan's one,does not make Tibets right for indipendence any less of an right then that of Kurdistan.
 
This is something that all anti-Americans strugle to understand,even here in Europe or America itself the liberals strugle to understand this.
 
Just because a right decicion is suported by the Americans it does not become less of an right then another decision which is not suported by the Americans.
 
For example,is a fact that America and Turkey are friends,therefore America is more careful on Kurdistans issue,but because America is no friend with China then is very right to suport openly the Tibets right for indipendence.
And i dont see why not.
It amazes me that people use this very argument against America.


Edited by HEROI - 16-Mar-2008 at 22:28
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:30
So the point is not that America wants to destabilise China,but the point is the people of Tibet dont want to be ruled by China,and it is right to suport them in their strugle,Thats the point,and wether America suports them or not,they are still right to ask to govern themselves.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:31
Tibet's people have every right to struggle for their rights but you miss the point... This has nothing to do with anti-Americanism or any such thing - it has to do with people's perceptions based on the information strategy of their government, genius.   

Edited by Zagros - 16-Mar-2008 at 22:32
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:49
Originally posted by Zagros

Tibet's people have every right to struggle for their rights but you miss the point... This has nothing to do with anti-Americanism or any such thing - it has to do with people's perceptions based on the information strategy of their government, genius.   
 
If this was directed to me,then i would say it has alot to do with anti-Americanism and such things,so when someone say that America or other democracies are only interested in Destabilisng China and not in the Tibetians right for indipendence ,then that is an anti-American point of view.
And you have given me the opinion that you yourself are quite incapable to separate facts when it comes to Americas policies,since you yourself are driven by anti-Americanism.But this is only my opinion.
 
You yourself say the Tibetians have the right to strugle for their rights,and thats what Americans stand for aswell,so were is your problem?
I tell you and all those that think like you were your problem is,your problem is the involvement of America ,thats whats your problem,and you are biased into opossing everything America suports,wether be it right or wrong.
 
And as for government's information strategy,for your info America is a country that has free media,and government information strategy is applied and even forced into the brains of the populations,were no free and fair news are broadcast,in countries such as China and Venezuela,Iran and Russia,so dont overturn the roles.
 
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beorna View Drop Down
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:56

I cannot understand how people in this forum can support or justify the chinese government and its behavior. And I cannot understand why people talking about western desinformation. Do you really believe these chinese government? There is only one excuse for the behavior of the chinese government. This is that they treat their own people as bad as the minorities.

And people in the western world do not believe their governments everything. Before and during the Iraq war millions of Europeans demonstrated against the war, not because they loved Saddam and his mass-murder, but because they were against wars as a part of politics. 

 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 22:59
How many of us actually know what the situation in Tibet is? just how opressed are they?
 
Is the average rural Chinese treated any better than the average Tibetan? as far as I know China is quite strict across the board not just ethnic groups.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:00
Exactly Beorna.
As i have explained their problem is America ,thats what is their problem,they will opose everything America suports wether be it right or wrong,they even go so far as to say America government is brainwashing its citesins who have free internet,free media,all out acces to info,and this argument is used by suporters of Governments of countries such as China ,Russia,Venezuela and Iran.Ridicolous.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:05

talking about media manipulation, PRC is the benchmark. BTW they just banned youtube so no one can see the footage

Turnaround as official media gives 'saboteurs' the works
 
John Garnaut Asia Economics Correspondent in Beijing
March 17, 2008
 
SCENES of rioters rampaging through Lhasa and setting shops ablaze were shown on official Chinese TV news bulletins over the weekend in a departure from the Government's habit of blacking out all news of civil unrest.

Chinese Central Television footage of robed Tibetan monks looting, beating shopkeepers and setting buildings ablaze were screened around the world. Official news reports included accounts from horrified non-Tibetan Chinese.

"The protesters were barbarous and violent," Xinhua, the official news agency, quoted a tourist as saying. "They ganged up on the young police officers and beat innocent people."

However, domestic coverage was tightly restricted to official media channels, with blogs and non-official news sources largely shut down.

The official media emphasised police casualties inflicted by Tibetan "saboteurs" and commended security forces for bringing the protests under control.

Most reports were overlayed with shrill anti-Dalai Lama rhetoric of the Chinese Government's propaganda machine. Wang Jiaquan, of Xinhua, said he had "turned the tranquil holy city of Lhasa into a land of terror".

He wrote, without evidence, that "this impudent politician's" call for Tibetans to refrain from violence was a clever disguise to continue duping the wider world.

Other reports from Xinhua and the state TV broadcaster CCTV said the purpose of the riots was to destroy the tranquillity, peaceful and healthy lives "which the Tibetan people enjoy at present". Access to YouTube was blocked after videos of the protests in Tibet appeared on the website.

The Panchen Lama, the Tibetan spiritual leader chosen by China's rulers, condemned what he called "lawless riots", saying a tiny minority was to blame.

"The rioters' acts not only harmed the interests of the nation and the people, but also violated the aim of Buddhism."
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:07
Originally posted by Bulldog

How many of us actually know what the situation in Tibet is? just how opressed are they?
 
Is the average rural Chinese treated any better than the average Tibetan? as far as I know China is quite strict across the board not just ethnic groups.
Why should Tibetians be ok with being as opresed as the Chinese?Why should they be opresed by the Chinese government?And how can opression of a people be justified with the excuse that that's how we opress our own citisins aswell?
The Tibetians simply dont want,they have been telling this to China and the world for a long time,what else can they do?They are a people that want to be governed in style with their own culture etc,what excuse can there be in such cases,is beyond me!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:16
Originally posted by Bulldog

How many of us actually know what the situation in Tibet is? just how opressed are they?
 
Is the average rural Chinese treated any better than the average Tibetan? as far as I know China is quite strict across the board not just ethnic groups.
um being a minortiy in your own land, losing language, actaully losing out in general (health/economic/political). If the place was as good as what the official PRC story goes it would be open for the world media to see. Seeing your revered monks and nuns getting beat up and arested, your spiritaul leader cant even be mentioned for fear of arrest, this is something unique to the tibetans. Its like the UK police going into the mosques and stomping and beating on the imams and any others within the mosques, just if they say anything they dont like. prison and torture to follow
 
It is hard for chinees peasants, but they are being run by their own kind so its their own problem. this was forced onto the tibetans so this is different
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:17
You yourself say the Tibetians have the right to strugle for their rights,and thats what Americans stand for aswell,so were is your problem?


I am the one incapable of separating facts?  America stands for nothing but American interests at best and the interests of its corporate elites at worst - NEVER the rights of others.

1. Why did America condone saddam's use of chemical weapons against Kurds in 1988?

Because it suited its interest (i.e.) Saddam was a regional ally.

2.  why did America decry that same incident in 2002-3?

BECAUSE it suited its interest (i.e.) to invade and pillage Iraq.

So tell me now, why is there such an outcry in the West at the plight of the Tibetans?  Because it suits their political interests.  very simple.  It now appears that I am quite capable of separating facts, my man, though you have put your capability in this regard in serious contention with that last post, among others.

My sympathies are with the Tibetans on a subjective basis, just as they are with the Iraqis who have a far worse fate at the hands of America.  Tibet is a case of Chinese imperialism and Iraq is a case of American imperialism.  So get a grip with the name calling.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:24
Is censorship manipulation?  I think it's far more honest in that you're simply being deprived of information (pretty obviously in this case) whereas the manipulation of which I speak is simply shameless, calculated disinformation.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:25

Well the world isn't a bed of roses, what makes you think an independant Tibet would be a model democracy or improve freedoms of the average Tibetan.

I don't think its fair to make judgements before knowing what the actual situation is, ultimately its up to the Tibetans, if they can use the situation for their benefit then they will do whats in thei interests. For China to become a super power it will have to either overcome these problems or its frontier terretories like Tibet and other areas will with foreign powers seperate. I feel Tibetans have always protested about Chinese rule but now there is a situation where certain powers can exploit this feeling.
 
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 16-Mar-2008 at 23:30
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:28
It seams you dont read my posts,i have already explained this in my previous post.
 
I dont doubt that America follows its own interest,but then what?What is it suposed to do,if it does not put its interest first?But the fact that America has its own interest does not make the Tibetian case any weaker,thats the point.While you suport Chinese government in this just because you are against American interest,because there is no other way to look at it then.
 
American policies are not absolutely all right or all wrong,but it does though have the principle to always side with the opressed,unlike its todays enemies (countries formentioned) that have the principle to always opress.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2008 at 23:39
Are putting words into other people's mouths and labeling them with hollow adjectives gifts that you were born with or did they come to you at some other stage in life?  I don't and have never supported the Chinese government in anything.  I am highlighting hypocrisy and double standards. 


Edited by Zagros - 16-Mar-2008 at 23:41
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2008 at 00:34
Originally posted by Sparten

Simla declaration was in 1914. The Chinese withrawl from Tibet was in 1912. Here is the USG position on this
 
"The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereinafter referred to as "Tibet") as part of the People's Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the view of the entire international community, including all China's neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover, U.S. acceptance of China's claim of sovereignty over Tibet predates the establishment of the People's Republic of China. In 1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had "at no time raised (a) question" over Chinese claims to Tibet."

Per

U.S. Department of State 95/09/07 Testimony: Kent Wiedemann on policy toward Tibet Bureau for East Asia and Pacific Affairs, testimony by Kent M. Wiedemann, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State For East Asian And Pacific Affairs Before Subcomittee On East Asian and Pacific Affairs Senate Foreign Relations Committee

And here is a statement the USG made before 1950, to the British EMbassy in 1943
 
For its part, the Government of the United States has borne in mind the fact that the Chinese Government has long claimed suzerainty over Tibet and that the Chinese constitution lists Tibet among areas constituting the territory of the Republic of China. This Government has at no time raised a question regarding either of these claims.
 
That deals with the United States. As Henry Bradsher a supporter of Tibet, admited in 1969.
 
"even today international legal experts sympathetic to the Dalai Lama's cause find it difficult to argue that Tibet ever technically established its independence of the Chinese Empire, imperial, or republican"
 
The only one who was ever againt this was the United Kingom Of Great Britain and Ireland/Nothern Ireland, when it was trying the annex Tibet in the early part of tha last century and it managed to annex a bit , which is now the Indian occupied North East Frontier Agency. WHat about that? Or is this thread limited only to Sino-Bashing.
 
 
well it was both russia and britain as the relevant empires of the day. Your second quote talks about suzerainty, please look up the meaning of that word , for instance Britain had that over india and pakistan, can it now claim that that holding is a part of the UK?
 
Your using of the USA is problematic (apart from being a unilateral view), at around that time they were using the CIA to help any resistance. Yep that right they were acting in the opposite way to that quote. So when picking a country, try to picking one that isnt so doubled faced and inconsistent so to lend your argument some credibility. If the tibetan resistance had a chance the US would of 'pulled a kosovo' on China. If you want to use well worn chinese debating points, do some checks first.
 

Between 1957 and 1969 the CIA armed, financed, and helped train Tibetan guerrillas who operated first inside Tibet, and later -- after the Dalai Lama's escape to India in 1959 -- from a base in Mustang, a remote corner of northwestern Nepal. This project, code-named ST Circus, was one of the CIA's longest-running covert operations. The withdrawal of the CIA's support in 1969 was as abrupt as its initial involvement was unexpected: The Tibetans had simply fitted into America's larger policy of destabilising or overthrowing Communist regimes, and when that no longer applied, they were abandoned.

http://www.berkeleymedia.com
 
more info on that episode of history in this PDF
 
here is what the UN Says about tibetan rights, in december 1961

2. Solemnly renews its call for the cessation of practices which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedoms, including their right to self determination
 
Tibet is seen in a similar light as other imperial possesions in this UN document, hardly a strong case of Tibet being a unified part of China proper. You dont see any issues in hunan province (for example only) in there now do you.
 
Anyway, whats the problem with critising the PRC, being pakistans big buddy maybe? doesnt feel the same as talking about the nasty West and the Zionist aggressors? They all can share the blame when they deserve it.
  


Edited by Leonidas - 17-Mar-2008 at 00:40
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