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Mercian
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Topic: European (esp British) national costumes...? Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 04:19 |
I'm assuming most European countries have a national costume: i.e. a set of clothing which has a historical resonance and is part of the unique national character of the country (like kimono in Japan etc). Is this accurate?
It seems to me that some countries, like Germany, have regional costume (e.g. Bavarian) but no national costume. Can any Germans tell me whether there is an accepted national costume or is it all pretty much regional? Or any other Europeans?
And then there's the British... well, I know that's a disparate grouping anyway, but let's see:
The Welsh have a national costume at least for women. Do you have one for men? Does anyone have any idea of its pedigree (age, origin etc - e.g. the kimono is from China originally, and the hakama, haori and happi were variously practical warrior and agricultural garb)? Any links would be appreciated.
The Scottish have kilts and that caboodle... same questions really... as far as I understand it neither the Picts or the Celts certainly didn't wear kilts (some kind of pantaloon clobber?!) and they're a relatively recent addition to the scene?
What about the Irish? You have kilts to but what provenance?
And then on to the English... nowadays the waistcoat is still kind of distinctly English I feel (maybe some of you other Europeans would like to disavow me of this?!) as a descendant of universal jerkins, but what about any unique costumes? Where did the suit come from - it seems universally European, but must have developed from some traditional wear? Ditto the tie...?
I know this is a broad subject, but England seems to me to have never had a distinct national costume, so my interest got piqued. I'd love to hear from especially other Europeans, though of course, anyone from other countries is welcome to join in. Links would be appreciated too.
Looking forward to some interesting input (or even rambling...!). Thanks in advance.
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Paul
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 04:44 |
English national costume. These days found mostly around Dover.
At the entrance to the Channel Tunnel
Edited by Paul - 10-Mar-2008 at 04:44
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Mercian
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 06:04 |
LOL, thanks Paul. Reminds me I should dig out some photos I have of medieval archers at Warwick Castle, and pikemen at Baddesley-Clinton. Still doesn't really go far too explaining the suit and necktie, or the lack of national costume nowadays though...!
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 14:17 |
English national costume = pinstripe suit from Savile Row; bowler, and brolly appended.
Banker/broker/civil service bloker.
How's that for a stereotype?
Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-Mar-2008 at 14:18
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 14:39 |
Most lands of Sweden (and Norway) have a so called "folk costume", which differ quite a lot from each pther. They are used rather infrequently, but if you are lucky you can spot them around Midsummer or at weddings. Whenever formal dress codes are required, the folk costume is an option besides the pinguin suite (whatever the proper term is) and army uniform. The Norwegians are more crazy about them then Swedes. Some midsummer celebrators, in unknown folk costume. The crown princess in fol kcostume from land: Costumes from Vrend: As far as I know, the Sami take greater pride in their traditional costumes, but don't quote me on that.
Edited by Styrbiorn - 10-Mar-2008 at 14:51
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Tore The Dog
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 15:27 |
I give a link to national costumes here , and look carefull becoz some is a lookalike , but several miles between them.
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Paul
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 18:11 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
English national costume = pinstripe suit from Savile Row; bowler, and brolly appended.
Banker/broker/civil service bloker.
How's that for a stereotype?
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The good old days when banks had bankers... and branches.
Not just a telephone number and a call centre in Bangalore.
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Temujin
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 20:28 |
Originally posted by Mercian
It seems to me that some countries, like Germany, have regional costume (e.g. Bavarian) but no national costume. Can any Germans tell me whether there is an accepted national costume or is it all pretty much regional? Or any other Europeans?
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some would say the only national costume is the uniform but really, there is no national costume at all, its all regional based, and some less eductated people think the national costume of bavaria is the national costume of whole germany while its not even the national costume of all modern bavaria, just bavaria proper (excludign swabia and franconia) and tyrolia.
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Paul
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Posted: 10-Mar-2008 at 21:10 |
National costumes seem to me to be an invention of tourist boards.
The most famous being Scotland in the 18th century when they wanted to try to encourage lowlanders to visit the highlands. So the made up family tartans and kilts.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 14:39 |
I can't find a picture of Luxembourg national costume but for part of our Christmas card some years ago Jo Anne drew this:
The mice are Luxembourgers (blue tunic, red neckerchief, red trousers). The rest you have to guess
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Temujin
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Posted: 11-Mar-2008 at 20:00 |
Originally posted by Mercian
Where did the suit come from - it seems universally European, but must
have developed from some traditional wear? Ditto the tie...? |
the tie in other european languages is called kravatte or similar, from French. it originally means Croat and was what the Croats in French service wore.
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Mercian
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 04:34 |
OK, been looking into this for a presentation to the final year of elementary school here in Japan, and through wikipedia and a couple of other places I've found a couple of things that may be interesting.
I was wondering primarily how the suit arose and if the British had any national fashion and if so, what was it and what happened to it.
Of course, I knew the suit must have had various countries of origin but wondered why it had subsequently been decided to be English. I also accept that the idea of a national costume is primarily a tourist board construct, but in some countries' cases (again, thinking mostly of Japan and Korea) nobody needs to tell the people to wear these things, and indeed as people have worn them in opposition to perceived over-westernisation as a grassroots movement.
So, what I found out was...
damn! Time ran out! Back to work! But, like Fu Manchu, I shall return! (Always thought that was classier than Arnie! )
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 10:22 |
Basically, no the British do not have any national costume.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 14:04 |
Parts of Britain have national costumes. The Scots certainly have the kilt and all that goes with it. And I suppose if pushed I could pretend to be down on the varm ('farm' for furriners), tie my trousers up with string and put on my old Wessex smock and hat.
Why can't I find a better picture than this:
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Paul
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Posted: 19-Mar-2008 at 18:07 |
Lets not forget flat caps and whippets.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 11:59 |
Not in Wessex.
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Northman
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Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 12:51 |
In general, the Danish National Costumes has gone out of fashion, except for groups of folk-dancers. Maybe the reason for this is, that these costumes was not only used for celebrations or sunday clothes. They were used as a normal outfit through the week. Each region or locality had its own costume (like everywhere else) - and here is a pdf document presenting a wide selection from most of the country.
The beautiful Greenlandish costumes however, changes from family to family - and are still commonly used at celebrations. Likewise the costumes of The Faroe Islands.
~ Northman
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Mercian
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 02:10 |
OK. This will summarize some stuff I've gleaned from a couple of websites I'll put later when I'm not at work and I've found them again. How reliable it is I don't know, but it seems to make some sense.
Apparently there are three reasons in its evolution that the suit is considered to have come from England.
1) The 14th century English version of the doublet was apparently the first tailored garment in Europe, i.e. fitted to and enhancing the body's contours using slits, pleats, tucks, and pads, rather than just straps, cords, belts, sashes and other ties. Apparently this fashion was considered lascivious and lacking in morals by the French who partly attributed it to their loss at Crecy. It certainly contributed to a certain freedom of movement and a new degree of comfort under armour, or on its own. (This is the specific answer to person questioning the waistcoat assumption earlier...?)
2) Charles II decided that, after the Puritan clampdown on just about anything, we needed a national costume to cement national unity, enhance a feeling of national identity, present a more unified outward appearance to the rest of Europe, and generally cheer us up with good tailoring...! He decided on what later became the suit as court wear: with some degree of standardisation of shoulder pads, length of coat and cravats (adopted and becoming more and more popular all through Europe after the Croatian mercenaries popularised them in the Thrity Years' War. It must be said that Louis XIV had already done the same in France, so quite how this makes it specifically an English thing, I don't know, unless simply by dint of ours being more successful.
3) The word 'suit' comes from medieval (late 13th century) Anglo-Norman, 'suivre' meaning 'to follow' (as its modern French meaning) and thus 'to match', and was used to refer to court clothes which were supposed to match each other, the tops and bottoms. Of course 'suit' has different translations in different languages, but it seems that this English one was the first to be used in any European language to mean a matching set of tailored garments.
It is maybe interesting to note (if I'm getting it right...) that, some elements of Japanese national costume, the modern suit seems to derive from underwear to be worn under armour or at least when lounging around!
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Mercian
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 02:15 |
Originally posted by Paul
National costumes seem to me to be an invention of tourist boards.
The most famous being Scotland in the 18th century when they wanted to try to encourage lowlanders to visit the highlands. So the made up family tartans and kilts.
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It would seem that Charles II got in before the tourist boards existed, but his motives were at least partially similar!
Incidentally, the great kilt (the long blanket thing with no belt) was knocking around centuries before the little girly thing people now see as a manly kilt. A great kilt is up to 8 yds long and can weigh over 5 kg. Imagine that soaked through, and you can see how highlanders have a reputation for being strong. The family tartans and the skirty kilt are from 18th century though.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 25-Mar-2008 at 13:21 |
18th century court dress didn't have matching jacket and hose. In fact technically 'court dress' doesn't now: neither does morning dress. Evening dress usually matches, but not necessarily.
It depends a lot on what you mean by 'suit'. The modern suit, in all its varieties, depends on having a matching jacket and trousers, and trousers were never more than very casual, lower-class wear until the late 18th, early 19th century. Note: I'm distinguishing here between trousers - loose leggings - and hose or breeches which were and are tight fitting. I don't think hose and breeches ever matched whatever top was being worn with them.
I'd have thought the French Revolution had more to do with the initial re-introduction of trousers as acceptable dress than fashions in Britain.
I've got a copy of Lucy Barton's Historic Costume for the Stage around somewhere but I can't find it offhand. If you're interested in the history of fashion it's worth having.
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