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Greater Iran?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Greater Iran?
    Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 16:37
what countries would today be included in the Greater Iran or Greater Persia?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 17:16

Iran would.

Or if you meant Iranic speakers, Afganistan and Tajikistan have a majority of Iranic speakers.


Edited by Bulldog - 08-Mar-2008 at 17:17
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 15:08
Actually, Greater Iran would probably encompass the regions that were all under the Sassanian Empire, so Iraq, parts of Anatolia (Kurdistan), Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan would all be included.
 
 
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 16:11
 
This is a map of Persian languages from Wikipedia. So, in linguistic terms, this area. Once could also theoretically add the Shia lands(Bahrain, Azebaijan and Shia Iraq).


Edited by Aussiedude - 06-Apr-2008 at 16:15
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 16:34
I think you'll find the correct term is Iranian or Iranic: Persian is just one branch thereof.
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  Quote Aussiedude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2008 at 16:47
EmbarrassedI know, typo.
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 14:49
Originally posted by Al Perrah

Actually, Greater Iran would probably encompass the regions that were all under the Sassanian Empire, so Iraq, parts of Anatolia (Kurdistan), Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan would all be included.
 
 


I hate how maps always extend Kurdish ethnic or linguistic zones into Kars province, it's so false (most of my family is there now). The northernmost boundaries of significant Kurdish populations are in the provinces south of Kars province, in Igdir and Agri. I've seen worse maps though.

I don't really get why "Greater Iran" had to be included in the name of the forum to be honest, with this logic might as well add the designation "Turan" to the Steppe Nomads & Central Asia forum.

Edited by kafkas - 08-Apr-2008 at 14:57
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 15:19
I personally prefer ancient Iran.  The areas of the map highlighted roughly coincide with the frontiers of the Sassanian empire which referred to itself as Iran.
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 15:29
in reference, I think the map is a linguistic map showing wherein the iranic languages are still spoken in. 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 15:56
That's right but they coincide with Sassanian frontier, roughly - I am not sure if it's a coincidence - in the case of Anatolia and the Caucasus I would say not, but to the east I would say that it is because southern CA is the original heartland of the Iranic group.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 15:59
Folks feel free to post under this thread. However, I would like to give you all a heads up. This topic was created by one of our most notorious spammers and habitual abusers, Arash (baniyas). He has a knack for thought provoking threads that border on controversy.
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2008 at 16:09
seko, I think this isnt really that much controversial but it is thought provoking.

some parts of xinjiang province of china as well are included. might be because the sassanids were the only iranian empire that believed in a nationalistic front for the iranic people.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 11:54
I think that Kurds have spilled over into Kars as well by now, and truth be told, Kars is Armenian, regardless of the Russo-Turkish treaties.
 
As far as Turan is concerned, why not, I think that it would also be a good addition to the Steppe and central Asia forum.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 13:30
The fact is that Turkic "Turan" is a fiction and has ethic connotations whereas Iran and CA are recognised geographic areas; the real Turan was in Afghanistan and was not Turkic.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 15:58
I disagree with you Zagros, I prefer to think that Turan is a region beyond the Oxus, called such by the Sassanians, where todays Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan lie. True, it was not Turkic, but who were its inhabitants if not Turks? Aryan tribes that gave rise to Pashtuns and Tajiks maybe?
 
Afghanistan would be Sogdiana (although Sogdiana  encompasses parts of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan) and Bactria (Balkh is Bactra, if I know my history).
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  Quote Julius Augustus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 16:23
In regards with Uzbekistan, a few scholars state that they were Iranic tribes turkicised and this includes Uzbek scholars at that.

they might be samarthian tribes or scythian ones.  
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 19:06
Originally posted by Al Perrah

I disagree with you Zagros, I prefer to think that Turan is a region beyond the Oxus, called such by the Sassanians, where todays Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan lie. True, it was not Turkic, but who were its inhabitants if not Turks? Aryan tribes that gave rise to Pashtuns and Tajiks maybe?
 
Afghanistan would be Sogdiana (although Sogdiana  encompasses parts of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan) and Bactria (Balkh is Bactra, if I know my history).


What you prefer to think is not really relevant though.  Turan was the term for what is now Afghani and Pakistani Baluchistan in Sassanian times.

Sassanian empire and provinces: 

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Images2/Maps/Iran_Under_Sasanian.gif

The Turan you're talking about is the Turan of the Shahnameh which was derived from the Avesta.  The inhabitants of this land in the Avesta beyond the Oxus were not Turks, simply put.  The word Turan comes from Turaj a son of Fereydoon.

Turan has a completely Iranic etymology.  The term was attributed to Turks in the 7th century by Iranians, a couple of hundred years after they first made contact with the Sassanians when they first started.   The reason for this is simply that the new people, the Turks, now inhabited the land of the ancient Turanians of the Avesta, an Iranic people.  And we know the ancient Turanians were Iranic because they spoke the same language as the ancient Iranians as well as having names with Iranic etymology, as mentioned.

Turks adopted the notion of Turan with themselves from the Iranians after 1000AD and it became the subject of nationalist Pan-Turk movement int he 19th century.

So to conclude: to call Central Asia Turan is simple conjecture and beyond any recorded historical fact and furthermore it is not a geographic designator of any part of Asia whereas CA and Iran are.  (And if you're not aware of this fact, the Iranian ethno-linguistic groups currently inhabiting Iran have their origins in Central Asia.)






Edited by Zagros - 09-Apr-2008 at 19:08
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 19:23
Zagros
The fact is that Turkic "Turan" is a fiction and has ethic connotations whereas Iran and CA are recognised geographic areas;
 
I also don't feel a section should be called, "Turan", this is because the term is often blurred. Turkestan is historically more correct, the term was used for centuries.
 
Zagros explains the situation well:
 
Turan has a completely Iranic etymology.  The term was attributed to Turks in the 7th century by Iranians, a couple of hundred years after they first made contact with the Sassanians when they first started.   The reason for this is simply that the new people, the Turks, now inhabited the land of the ancient Turanians of the Avesta, an Iranic people.  And we know the ancient Turanians were Iranic because they spoke the same language as the ancient Iranians as well as having names with Iranic etymology, as mentioned.
 
In addition to this, the term "Ancient Iran" would be better and avoid confusion.
 
 
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2008 at 22:08
Zagros

"Greater Iran" is not a recognized geographic area. Maybe recognized by this forum and Iranian nationalists, but not by the countries in which it supposedly covers.

Turan isn't fiction, as you proceeded to give an account of the term later in your post. It's as much a reference as "Greater Iran".

Either way I don't really care, I just don't think the label is necessary.


Edited by kafkas - 09-Apr-2008 at 22:08
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2008 at 01:33

I think the meaning can be misinterpreted that is why I wantd it to be Ancient Iran instead of 'greater'.

There is actually, a geographic area referred to as the Iranian plateau and it encompasses the majority of Iran, Afghainstan and Pkistan and that is what greater refers to. The areas around it can be considered as part of this region historically speaking with such cultures as the harappan, elamites, cassites etc as well as the Iranic peoples who the plateau is named after.
 
Do you understand what i mean now?
 
You can see the extent of it here:
 


Edited by Zagros - 10-Apr-2008 at 01:36
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