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The situation with Gibraltar: Spain vs England

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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The situation with Gibraltar: Spain vs England
    Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 23:06
Gibraltar became a pressing issue for Spain after Franco whos nationalist ideals brought up the idea that the Rock should become a part of Spain. Ever since, Spain yearns to have Gibraltar back under her sway. Why does Spain want this little piece of land so badly however? It confuses me sometimes when I think about it. A little history lesson on the issue from the CIA World Factbook:

Strategically important, Gibraltar was reluctantly ceded to Great Britain by Spain in the 1713 Treaty of Utrecht; the British garrison was formally declared a colony in 1830. In a referendum held in 1967, Gibraltarians voted overwhelmingly to remain a British dependency. Although the current 1969 Constitution for Gibraltar states that the British Government will never allow the people of Gibraltar to pass under the sovereignty of another state against their freely and democratically expressed wishes, a series of talks were held by the UK and Spain between 1997 and 2002 on establishing temporary joint sovereignty over Gibraltar. In response to these talks, the Gibraltar Government called a referendum in late 2002 in which the majority of citizens voted overwhelmingly against any sharing of sovereignty with Spain. Since the referendum, tripartite talks on other issues have been held with Spain, the UK, and Gibraltar, and in September 2006 a three-way agreement was signed. Spain agreed to remove restrictions on air movements, to speed up customs procedures, to implement international telephone dialing, and to allow mobile roaming agreements. Britain agreed to pay increased pensions to Spaniards who had been employed in Gibraltar before the border closed in 1969. Spain will be allowed to open a cultural institute from which the Spanish flag will fly. A new non-colonial constitution came into effect in 2007.

So the question I put forth is...Should Gibraltar "eventually" return under Spanish dominion, or should it remain under the rule of the people who already live there?
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2008 at 23:37
I think the word is "Gibralter Government", not British. Gibralter has self rule.
 
I you are from Gibralter and had the choice of self rule or rule by Spain, what would you choose?
 
The Gibralter government completely outmaneuvered Spain when it called the referendum. I believe the result was over 99% voted against Spain. Imagine you are the Spanish government, what do you do now?
 


Edited by Paul - 04-Mar-2008 at 23:38
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 00:40
If you are Spain, and you find it advantageous to remain in the EU and NATO, you put up with it.
 
Gibraltar is no more strategically important now than is the Panama Canal.  It is not 1914 anymore.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 00:41
Invade?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 00:53
Originally posted by pinguin

Invade?
 
Oh yeah, like Argentina did.  Good move.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 01:23
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

... 
Oh yeah, like Argentina did.  Good move.
 
 
Well, I guess they could wait for some centuries.... Britain won't be a superpower forever, now that James Bond and his generation is becomming senior citizens LOL


Edited by pinguin - 05-Mar-2008 at 01:23
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 07:20
I remember a thread about this a while back.  Have to agree with Pikeshot on this.
 
As an aside what is the population of Gibraltar?
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 16:11
They obviously do not want that reintegration into Spain. As a subject to the Crown they have more right to self determination than they would with Spain, and the protection guaranteed being part of the UK. Basically they have a great position right now that benefits them whereas being part of Spain would limit their own government's effectiveness.

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 18:34
 Morocco has more right to Ceuta and Melilla than Spain has to Gibraltar so if Gibraltar returns so should the two cities.
 
 
Al-Jassas


Edited by Al Jassas - 05-Mar-2008 at 18:36
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2008 at 23:38
Originally posted by es_bih

They obviously do not want that reintegration into Spain. As a subject to the Crown they have more right to self determination than they would with Spain, and the protection guaranteed being part of the UK. Basically they have a great position right now that benefits them whereas being part of Spain would limit their own government's effectiveness.

You are right in some respects about how Gibraltar's own government is efficient as it looks out for only their interests. But I believe that since Gibraltar is on the tip of Spain it should be integrated with the rest of the country. It is time to get rid of all the tensions going on between a very tiny province and a country that surrounds it. Spain would do just as good a job if not better (because of the proximity) as the UK in protection. I feel like this standoff needs to finally be done and over with and push British stubborness aside.
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 09:57
Not British stubbornness, Gibraltarian.
 
Your argument was effectively that used by the late Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 11:12
Back in 1982 I had a Spanish woman friend in London who was puzzled over why we were fighting over the Falklands.[1] I told her we were practising for Gibraltar.
 
Then of course Spain joined the EEC. (As is was then.)
 
[1] She of course said Malvinas.
 
It might also be worth a note that Gibraltarians are represented in the European Parliament as part of (and voting in) the South-West England constituency.
 
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 20:29
gibralter has the right to make its own choices on the matter, we are all in the same euro soup now anyway, so its all relativly academic, but the people of gibralter have there own distinctive cultural identity, they are no more british or spanish than the aussies.
Its the right of them to choose there ties, if they were to turn around tommorow and choose to rejoin spain, then fair play, but outside pressure from the spanish will make that a more remote, wherever brits are exported, be it canada, america, australia etc,
our stubborness goes with them.
The question gibralter will ask is what are the benefits, and unless im missing something there are none.
long live the king of bhutan
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2008 at 20:39
To them it's the choice, if they want to they'll integrate. But they do not want so they won't
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 10:01
The biggest crunch i can see will be if and when the UK withdraws from the European Union, which will happen eventually, as the euro will not be adopted, they missed the boat on that one, the euro sceptic is on the rise here now particularly in parliament and the house of lords, and much less than us leaving i cant imagine that the rest of europe would wish us to stay if we are not fully commited to the euro project.
Trade wont be affected the germans will still want to sell us cars and the danish will want to sell us bacon etc, and both sides will be free to go there respective courses, but whether gibralter would rather remain would sway things in there choice options.
In my view gibralter should be like a new monaco or san marino.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 11:54
Spain should shut up on the issue, 99% of Gibraltans have spoken.
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  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 15:02
The British marines while training coastel attacks strayed a few miles too north and acctually invaded Spain instead of Gibraltar. Could have been very innocent if both sides weren't so good natured about it...
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  Quote Cataln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 15:12
Originally posted by Zagros

Spain should shut up on the issue, 99% of Gibraltans have spoken.
 
Believe it or not, most Spaniards don't care.  Then again, many Spaniards don't consider themselves 'Spaniards'.  For me, born and raised in the United States, it's a difficult concept to understand, but nationalism is becoming less and less important in Spain (well, apart from Basque and Cataln nationalism, that is).  Given how I was raised, of course, I'm extremely nationalistic.
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  Quote Cataln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 15:13
Originally posted by longshanks31

The question gibralter will ask is what are the benefits, and unless im missing something there are none.
 
We'll you give free access to Pach for life.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2008 at 15:23
How about a swap. Gibralter for Ibiza, it's practically ours already.
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