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Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech

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Mughal e Azam View Drop Down
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
    Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 13:54
How is Freedom of Speech used; well, its very subjective.
 

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons

This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Monday February 06 2006. It was last updated at 08:38 on February 07 2006.

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.

Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:06
You're title is wrong; it should read "Hypocrisy of Jyllandsposten". 
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:18
No, because Jyllands was not neccessarily the editor or supporter of the cause, as the whole nation and even Western Europe backed their cartoons.
 
Neccessarily equating the Freedom of Speech clause, used when the ruling party wants.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:33
Originally posted by Mughaal

No, because Jyllands was not neccessarily the editor or supporter of the cause, as the whole nation and even Western Europe backed their cartoons.
 
Neccessarily equating the Freedom of Speech clause, used when the ruling party wants.

The state didn't back the cartoons, they backed their right to publish them.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:42
The state backed their own backsides. Over here the Danish embassy was falling over itself to condemn Jutland Post, yet in Western Capitals the officals were supporting them. It was hypocracy of the highest order. They clearly did not have the courage of their convictions.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 15:14
I think Styrbiorn is right. Besides that, who says Freedom of Speech is about being balanced and kind to others? The are Muslims who talk out against the country they are in with insults for not joining Islam, and they desecrate the said nations flag, atleast one image of this always comes to mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4
We allowed these idiots to say what they'd like to. The flag means alot to Americans, bothers me a whole lot seeing that video. But no one attacked them or violently protested them, why, because we allow them that right thats why.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 20:06
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

I think Styrbiorn is right. Besides that, who says Freedom of Speech is about being balanced and kind to others? The are Muslims who talk out against the country they are in with insults for not joining Islam, and they desecrate the said nations flag, atleast one image of this always comes to mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4
We allowed these idiots to say what they'd like to. The flag means alot to Americans, bothers me a whole lot seeing that video. But no one attacked them or violently protested them, why, because we allow them that right thats why.


What activist or protester conglomerate protesting issue 1, 2, or 3 has not burned an American flag. That flag means a lot to Americans sounds almost like you divide Muslim and American into two separate categories. Mind you that even one of George Bush's primary contributors in his presidential campaign was a Muslim family who call themselves American, are Republican, are practicing Muslims, etc... Now as far as the flag it most likely means something to them, too. The thing is that flag burning has happened numerous times before and culprits being "born" Americans, white, etc... so if they were the precedent and these are doing so now it is not a novelty. Nor are Muslims the only one doing it nor is this incident going to be stopped nor is it likely that some other protester or group won't do it.

As far as the response in Denmark, there are a lot of people that get riled up and then use any offence imaginable in order to instigate some sort of reaction or to gain attention or to show visual of being pissed off. That is a norm for masses. Not to say that there were not more moderate and reasonable protesters and protests as well.

It does not surprise me if this news report is real. The cartoons were clearly printed for one purpose only to insult and piss off. The cartoonists knew what the consequences were and what they were doing. Yes Freedom of speech should go both ways then, too. And Muslims would not have been happy about defiling Jesus either in cartoons. A humorous image may not have had as much backlash, but the Prophet with a bomb replacing a turban with generic Arabic lettering... you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the editor and the cartoonist did know what is going on and that its meant to offend.
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  Quote Parnell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:18
Originally posted by Mughaal

How is Freedom of Speech used; well, its very subjective.
 

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons

This article was first published on guardian.co.uk on Monday February 06 2006. It was last updated at 08:38 on February 07 2006.

Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.

The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.

Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."



Look: The intense over-reaction in the Muslim world to a few freaking cartoons has terrified this newspaper into doing anything remotely controversial ever again. If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them. There are nutjobs like that out there. Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:36
What activist or protester conglomerate protesting issue 1, 2, or 3 has not burned an American flag. That flag means a lot to Americans sounds almost like you divide Muslim and American into two separate categories. Mind you that even one of George Bush's primary contributors in his presidential campaign was a Muslim family who call themselves American, are Republican, are practicing Muslims, etc...
Whether it sounds that way or not, I wouldn't, I've said on these forums that I fear the Christian right more then I do radical muslims.
My point was that anyone is capable of one sided insults and they can pretend to be fair or not. In this case I showed a extreme demistration of a Muslim Radical group taking full benefit of the rights we give them and they know it as they mention it. So it works both ways.
So whether Muslims are Americans or not isn't an issue with me at all or one I'm discussing.
The thing is that flag burning has happened numerous times before and culprits being "born" Americans, white, etc...
I never implied that only Muslim are the only ones to commit this act.
I was just following the subject of this discussion.
Nor are Muslims the only one doing it nor is this incident going to be stopped nor is it likely that some other protester or group won't do it.
If you read my post again, you'd see I'd agree with this line. It's not going to stop, why? Because we allow it.
Originally posted by Parnell

If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them.
There is one cartoonist, might be a one of the Danish ones, who has to basicly run for the rest of his life. He moves to multiple safe houses a day and is now always looking behind his back because extremist have put a hit on him. He's recieved threats from all sorts of people, even women. I'll try looking up the video, I'm sure I can find it on youtube.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:45
Here's an update on the intentions of the movement behind the Danish cartoonist incident.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 00:16
Originally posted by Parnell

Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong.
Clap
 
Very well put. Unfortunately nowadays some would use Freedom of Speech as an excuse to suppress other human rights.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 00:36
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

to suppress other human rights.

like?
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 01:43
Just a few pointers...
 
- I have learned a number of things through the years here on AE, and one of them keeps amazing me. No matter how much it is discussed, only a few, in fact maybe only one Muslim here actually knows what the concept of free speech and expression involves - and that is indeed very sad.
 
- After a break from AE, I came back when the discussion in the +60 pages thread about the Danish cartoons had calmed down. It was obvious that NOONE (Muslim or not) in that thread actually knew what happened and why it happened, and apparently that hasn't changed. 
 
Before we glorify everything related to muslims and push blame on everyone else, we should read a little about whats going on outside our own little bubble.
The way radical muslims (and other troublemakers with muslim background) take advantage of spreading fear in order to force western authorities to bend to their demands is appaling. I have been a strong defender of the rights of our muslims immigrants, but they make it very hard for me and others like me, to keep that up.
Just a few things from the last month:
Threats of murder, +100 incidents of arsen, riots etc. And maybe the worst part is - well integrated Muslims don't dare to speak up against it - they are too scared.
 
I can't blame other Danes and Scandinavians who want the troublemakers out, the ones who think that only Islam is to be obeyed, not the laws of the country. And even if they are convicted of a crime (murder threat), they instantly cry for their human rights to avoid being expelled. Then suddenly, the western laws and values are fine. Who said hypocrits?
 
@Sparten
If I had been the Danish ambassador in Pakistan during that time, I would also have condemed the cartoons.....   to stay alive.
 
About burning flags:
The US flag and the Danish flag are equally sacred to Americans and Danes as a picture of Muhammad is to Muslims. But we don't start murdering Muslims or the Mullahs who ignited the protests because of this. Those protests which mostly was a mean to lessen local frustration. A little simplifyed:
"As a Muslim and citizen here, you cannot protest about the rotten conditions here, but now there is a cause you can use for an excuse to let some steam out  - go out and burn some flags and buildings"
 
I could go on along these lines for the rest of the page, and I know this post is very "unlike" me - but the hypocrisy has to stop - also Muslim hypocrisy.
 
~ Northman
 
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:03
I agree with Northman. We all know the West is hypocritical; it happens, deal with it, get over it. But to pretend that practitioners of Islam are absolutely incapable of hypocrisy is just plain mis-guided, and there certainly have been cases of advocates of Sharia and such using the double-standards of hypocrisy and Western guilt to subvert the systems of the Western governments under which they live. Sometimes, you just gotta deal with the realities on the ground- not the idealized conception of the world the way you want it to be. 
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:35
Originally posted by Parnell



Look: The intense over-reaction in the Muslim world to a few freaking cartoons has terrified this newspaper into doing anything remotely controversial ever again. If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them. There are nutjobs like that out there. Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong.


They decided not to post the Jesus cartoons in 2003 because of what it meant. They posted the Muhammad cartoons after 3 years, because of what it meant.

And it was no over reaction. And if done again, there will probable be more unrest and economic backlashes against Denmark.


Edited by Mughaal - 01-Mar-2008 at 02:36
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:43
In regards to Northman and Brian's posts.

This is off tangent; in the 1700s French Empire and British Empire pushed the Ottoman Empire to allow them (foreign powers) be "representatives" of the Nasranis (Nazaratheans = Christians) in the Sublime Porte. The funny thing is that a sovereign imperial power was being told by its own Orthodox Greeks and Protestant/Catholic Christians how and what political control minority religion is to have, even if such consent oversteps the boundaries of rules and regulations set for the common majority (Muslims).

In 2000s, same thing is happening over the Christian heartlands. And when Muslims dont get what they want, you have Paris burning and London protesting.

History repeats itself indeed.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:07
Originally posted by Mixcoatl

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


to suppress other human rights.

like?

Safety

Originally posted by Northman

Before we glorify everything related to muslims and push blame on everyone else, we should read a little about whats going on outside our own little bubble.

I'm not interested in what is going on outside my bubble. I'm interested in why a Danish paper had to come over to my bubble and start picking fights.
Why should I care what small-time criminals 10,000 km away do?

That's the bottom line. If a man from X murdered a man from Y. It is not ok for Y to turn X into a nuclear crator.
It is never ok to do what that paper did, and there are no mitigating circumstances.

Besides, I'm untrusting enough about Quality of Life in central Europe that I suspect that these "troublemakers" probably have a fairly good point, and probably are having their statements grossly misrepresented (probably deliberately)


The US flag and the Danish flag are equally sacred to Americans and Danes as a picture of Muhammad is to Muslims.
]
No they really aren't. The reaction should be enough to prove that.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:30
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

What activist or protester conglomerate protesting issue 1, 2, or 3 has not burned an American flag. That flag means a lot to Americans sounds almost like you divide Muslim and American into two separate categories. Mind you that even one of George Bush's primary contributors in his presidential campaign was a Muslim family who call themselves American, are Republican, are practicing Muslims, etc...
Whether it sounds that way or not, I wouldn't, I've said on these forums that I fear the Christian right more then I do radical muslims.
My point was that anyone is capable of one sided insults and they can pretend to be fair or not. In this case I showed a extreme demistration of a Muslim Radical group taking full benefit of the rights we give them and they know it as they mention it. So it works both ways.
So whether Muslims are Americans or not isn't an issue with me at all or one I'm discussing.
The thing is that flag burning has happened numerous times before and culprits being "born" Americans, white, etc...
I never implied that only Muslim are the only ones to commit this act.
I was just following the subject of this discussion.
Nor are Muslims the only one doing it nor is this incident going to be stopped nor is it likely that some other protester or group won't do it.
If you read my post again, you'd see I'd agree with this line. It's not going to stop, why? Because we allow it.
Originally posted by Parnell

If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them.
There is one cartoonist, might be a one of the Danish ones, who has to basicly run for the rest of his life. He moves to multiple safe houses a day and is now always looking behind his back because extremist have put a hit on him. He's recieved threats from all sorts of people, even women. I'll try looking up the video, I'm sure I can find it on youtube.


Flag burning has happened and will happened because we allow it. Whether we like it or not. Yes that is very true. Nevertheless, it is a part of freedom of speech isn't it, the cartoons were covered under freedom of speech yes, insensitive for all they were they were still under that clause just like Santa and Jesus killing each other on South Park...

Groups get riled up, mobs are easy to insinuate, which leads to a lot of property damage and rather uncivil behavior no matter the setting.

As far as their refusal to actually publish those with that "offend" clause... does not take much pondering to see that a double standard.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:37
Originally posted by Northman

About burning flags:
The US flag and the Danish flag are equally sacred to Americans and Danes as a picture of Muhammad is to Muslims. But we don't start murdering Muslims or the Mullahs who ignited the protests because of this. Those protests which mostly was a mean to lessen local frustration. A little simplifyed:
"As a Muslim and citizen here, you cannot protest about the rotten conditions here, but now there is a cause you can use for an excuse to let some steam out  - go out and burn some flags and buildings"
 
I could go on along these lines for the rest of the page, and I know this post is very "unlike" me - but the hypocrisy has to stop - also Muslim hypocrisy.
 
~ Northman
 


I disagree... A national flag and a turban bomb on a world religion's prophet is not exactly the same thing.

The flag represents the nation, not a religion, nor a transnational movement or body of believers. It repersents a conglomerate of citizens. An American flag represents that same muslim that gets pissed off at that Danish cartoon, as much as the local bible study leader, or the atheist on the next block, etc... Now that muslim can also be pissed of that flag burning, too... and all of the three respective examples may also find it abhorring, but a part of freedom of speech just like the cartoon. They may also think that an insinuating cartoon isn't exactly the greatest example of freedom of speech either. And this to them definetly doesn't excuse the barbaric burnings of buildings and death threats either.


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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:49
Flag burning has happened and will happened because we allow it. Whether we like it or not. Yes that is very true. Nevertheless, it is a part of freedom of speech isn't it, the cartoons were covered under freedom of speech yes, insensitive for all they were they were still under that clause just like Santa and Jesus killing each other on South Park...
Right, and no one should face death threats because of it.
Groups get riled up, mobs are easy to insinuate, which leads to a lot of property damage and rather uncivil behavior no matter the setting.
War protests and even Illegal Immigrants here have had mass protests recently, all of which had no property damage. There were also some racial protests and others that gained media attention about other subjects. I believe the reason is our culture believes in our ideals strongly and the one that is put forth before all is Freedom of Speech.
As far as their refusal to actually publish those with that "offend" clause... does not take much pondering to see that a double standard.
And why should it matter, if they want to have a double standard, thats their problem. But if their life is threatened, or a countries' people have to fear rioters destroying their property over what someone said, then I'm going to stand by them and show my support. Those who came to a nation with set ideals should follow them and protest peacefully or perhaps leave if you believe violence is the answer.  
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