first, about the family tree and sucession: the youngest son (Tolui) was the heir all along. i never figured out where this Jochi vs Chagatai myth came from but the youngest son gets the spoil, this is Tolui. Tolui died early so the second youngest (?g?dai) became great khankhuriltai
The youngest son would inherit family property doesnt mean he would also inherit the crown of "great khan", Chingis wasnt the youngest for taking the crown, "Great khan" must be elected by the khuriltai, they are two different conceptions. Besides, Ogedei was elected as the "Great khan" by the khuriltai in 1229,but Tolui died in 1232,which was after Ogedei became the "great khan".
Originally posted by Temujin
Jochi wa snot at all disliked by Chinggis qaan and we can already read this in the ShoM. if Chinggis had a dislike of Jochi because of his supposed bastard origin, he had not accepted and perhaps killed him instantly, there really was no logical reason at all to wait for this until much later
Chingiskhan did actually prepare to lead the army himself against Jochi on the rumor and suspicion of his possible betrayal when Jochi didnt attend the meeting with Chingis in 1223. Its also known Jochi and Chagatai disliked each other for a long time.
Originally posted by Temujin
now about M?ngke & sucession struggle. now for the first time, the crown of Qaan was again with the Toluids, this was of course disputed by Qaidu.anyways, after M?ngkes death, Arigh B?ke was elected but defeated by Kubilai and his Chinese vassals
When Mongke was alive, Kaidu didnt revolt,but after Mongke's death,civil war broke out between the Mongols, not only between the descendants of Ogedei and Tolui because of their old differences on succession, but also between the Toluis for the right of new succession.
Originally posted by Temujin
this, and his establishing of the Yuan dynasty was enough for the Chaghatay khanate and ulus Jochi to not recognize him as legal. his brother hl?g of the Ilkhanate however recognized him.
Chagatai khanate was in support of Arigboka first but then switched to Kubilai's side, for this reason Arigboka attacked Chagatai khanate but he was eventually defeated by Chagatais.
Originally posted by Temujin
so Kubilai was never ruler of a unified mongol empire.
Hence, the conquest of Southern was rather like "regional conquest" by the Yuan dynasty rather than "world conquest" by the Mongol empire, since there was no longer an unified empire anymore ever since the death of Mongke.
Originally posted by Temujin
about the mongol defeats, it is not known if the Volga Bulgars defeated Jebe at all, this is claimed by the Volga Bulgars but far from certain. we know Jebe made it back to Kwarazm with the expedition force and it seems unlikely he was defeated or at least not badly beaten at all.
And even if they did manage to do so, the defeat of a Mongol general is nothing compared to the death of Great khan of the Mongol empire.The worst Mongol defeat is the siege of Diaoyucheng and it triggered the succession crisis among the Mongol nobility resulting in the weakening of Mongols as an uniting force, the leadership of "Great Khan" once uniting the Mongol horseman as one force in their conquest of the world is no longer there, although the Mongols would still continue to play their role in history, but the days of "the Mongol empire" was already over.
Why should we believe you? As you say history is just a "victor's bitch" for sure the whole battle at Diaoyucheng is just a myth invented by the Chinese victors. It most likely never happened at all except in the Chinese soap opera.
Why should we believe you? As you say history is just a "victor's bitch"
for once and for last, i advised that "history shouldnt be treated as the victor's bitch" not the other way around.
and when you say "why should "WE" believe you", im not taking this as a sign that you are representing others as well other than representing yourself.
Originally posted by Samart12
for sure the whole battle at Diaoyucheng is just a myth invented by the Chinese victors. It most likely never happened at all except in the Chinese soap opera.
but i will take this as a sign that you are losing control of yourself.
YES, LiShiMin is not partly Turkish, he is partly Xianbei. It is evident that Lishimin's grandmother is a 100% Xianbei blooded.
I really dont think this thread is the place to talk about the "blood"
but since this issue is raised again,
Originally posted by The Charioteer
The first man to stir the "controversial issue" regarding the blood of Li family being "nomadic" was a Buddhist monk named Falin during Taizong's reign, the reason the monk spread such rumor is because he wants Taizong to shift his favor to buddhism because as i said before Taizong favored daoism over buddhism.
Daoism was in fact the offical religion of Tang dynasty, the temple Tang dynasty built for Laozi is regarded by Tang emperors as "the ancestrial temple". Tang emperors, empresses and imperial consorts have to be bestowed with Daoist talisman(equivalent of receiving and upholding precepts in buddhism). As matter of fact, the reign title "Zhenguan" Taizong chose for his reign era is derived from Daoism meaning "Bright and harmonious", he issued imperial order that whenever Daoism and buddhism meet, Daoism has preferential status over Buddhist.
This situation was considered by Chinese buddhist as bias against them and their religion. So Falin tried to change his religions political status in the eyes of Tang rulers by stirring up their ancestry since the Li family regard Laozi as their ancestor so they naturally favor daoism over buddhism.
What Falin did was not only he spread the rumor the Li family actually come from Tuoba clan, but at the same time Falin "revealed the truth" about the founder of Daoism Laozi, that he was a pathetic man therefore is not worthy of worship. This was actually the continuation of "fight of right" between buddhism and daoism in China, and the blood of Li family become in reality victim of this "fight".
but its all wishful thinking fueled by the monks "religious fanaticism". Taizong never accepted such "request", on the contrary he had falin sentenced to death but after reconsidering such execution could enrage the buddhist circle he altered his decision, Falin was only banished, and he had made it clear out of this rumor, that his family was descended from the founder of daoism, laozi.
Prior to Japanese invasion of China during the second world war, Japanese historian utilized the "fact"(which in reality is a lie) that despite the Tang emperors were "non-Chinese" they created a "golden era" in Chinese, likewisely, despite Japanese were "non-Chinese" invaders, the Chinese would(in theory) accept them and welcome them as the founder and master of "Greater Far East Co-prosperity Sphere". In short, the "controversy" around the blood of Tang household was used by them as a justification to their militaristic action against China.
Ironically, the same lie (Taizong's family has Tuoba root) is utilized by some modern "historian" again for the sake of their own interest.
"Korean nationalist", "steppe culture chauvinist", "anti-sinocentrist" all love to make big fuss about the blood of Tang household as i have obeserved it. funny thing is, they dont even seem to know where that "piece of history" really came from.
I observe only that you contradict yourself and try to prove your point by posting beautiful pictures from Chinese soap operas and computer games. You also make big fuss of those and claim that everything which not fit in your beautiful soap operas pictures is some "alien cultural chauvinism."
1. It's historical fact that Tangtaizong carries Xianbei blood. This is not a fiction. Please check recognizable history books or sources. Acutally, I would say, without Xianbei's assimilation existence, there might not have histories of Sui and Tang in China.
2. Assimilation of all Chinese ethinity groups never cease, it has been kept going and going.
I observe only that you contradict yourself and try to prove your point by posting beautiful pictures from Chinese soap operas and computer games.
From Western Han period relics depicting its contemporary army and its cavalry,based on these relics as well history records, the reconstructive drawing, 3D reconstructive images (not from computer games) of Western Han cavalry force in support of dream208's point that "Western Han military engagement with Xiongnu were conducted by Chinese army" and its distinctively own version of cavalry, for instance the use of crossbow instead of composite bow on horseback which was inherited from previous Qin dynasty as its discovered from excavation of terracotta army of Qinshihuangdi that Qin cavalry were armed with crossbows, an invention by the Chinese.etc And those "beautiful pictures from Chinese soap operas" are from John Woo's new film "battle of the red cliff", the army outfits resembles Han period as the director promised to base his film on real history of "three kingdoms" rather than base it on the novel "Romance of three kingdoms". And i wished to share these with dream208.
Originally posted by Samart12
You also make big fuss of those and claim that everything which not fit in your beautiful soap operas pictures is some "alien cultural chauvinism."
Wait a moment, when i said ""Korean nationalist", "steppe culture chauvinist", "anti-sinocentrist" all love to make big fuss about the blood of Tang household as i have obeserved it. funny thing is, they dont even seem to know where that "piece of history" really came from" as response to the issue regarding blood of Tang household in "why buddhism is successful in China" thread. Have my "beautiful soap operas pictures" in this thread got anything to do with it?
Originally posted by Samart12
It's a very funny thing indeed.
indeed, moderator losing control of himself and acting more like a child is funny.
Acutally, I would say, without Xianbei's assimilation existence, there might not have histories of Sui and Tang in China.
can one also claim without the history of "five barbarians incursion into China", China wouldnt able to flourish during later times either? or rather it caused more than 300 hundred years of wars and disunity, which delayed the flourish.
Originally posted by Xianpei
1. It's historical fact that Tangtaizong carries Xianbei blood. This is not a fiction. Please check recognizable history books or sources.
Whether its "fiction" or not, the descendants of Li family have the ultimate right to say, rather by you or me. But the Li family have published their own studies regarding their family history in which they dismiss such connection with the Xianbei. If you can read Chinese then ask me for the source.
Originally posted by Xianpei
2. Assimilation of all Chinese ethinity groups never cease, it has been kept going and going.
1. It's historical fact that Tangtaizong carries Xianbei blood. This is not a fiction. Please check recognizable history books or sources. Acutally, I would say, without Xianbei's assimilation existence, there might not have histories of Sui and Tang in China.
2. Assimilation of all Chinese ethinity groups never cease, it has been kept going and going.
This is indeed a known fact. Some historians actually say that Toba-wei ruling class was a distict ethnicity or at least a special ethnic group of Chinese called Tabgach which was formed as a result of intermixing between Chinese, Xianbi and other nomades. This perfectly explains the popularity of Taizong among Turks.
[QUOTE=Xianpei] 1. It's historical fact that Tangtaizong carries Xianbei blood. This is not a fiction. Please check recognizable history books or sources.
Whether its "fiction" or not, the descendants of Li family have the ultimate right to say, rather by you or me. But the Li family have published their own studies regarding their family history in which they dismiss such connection with the Xianbei. If you can read Chinese then ask me for the source.
Its known fact that for more than 1000 years Li family have always been regarded as Chinese, and their family history in north China can trace back to pre-Qin period.
its only during recent years revisionist "historians" started to make such claims about the Li family's blood wthout consent of the descendants of Li family and without a single one member of the Li family's support.
Originally posted by Samart2
Some historians actually say that Toba-wei ruling class was a distict ethnicity or at least a special ethnic group of Chinese called Tabgach which was formed as a result of intermixing between Chinese, Xianbi and other nomades.
No one disagrees that Toba is from the Xianbei tribe, but one can not claim the same for Li family.
Originally posted by Samart12
This perfectly explains the popularity of Taizong among Turks.
The blood of Toba-wei perfectly explains the popularity of Taizong among Turks?
besides, I have already told you the rumor of Li family descended from Toba clan was fabricated by a Tang buddhist Monk named Falin.
The rumor of Li family have Toba root is also not supported by modern genetic studies on Han population, Li clan has more than 90 million members today, the genetic impact of Li family of Tang dynasty on the Han population is comparable to the genetic impact of Chingiskhan on central Asia, if Li family was indeed originated from Toba of nomadic Xianbei clan, there should be detectable evidence in the Y-chromosome genetic makeup of modern Han population, but that is not the case.
Such claim was never prevailed in history, never accepted and supported by the descendants of Li family themsleves, and it is not validated by modern genetic studies.
[quote=Xianpei]Acutally, I would say, without Xianbei's assimilation existence, there might not have histories of Sui and Tang in China.
can one also claim without the history of "five barbarians incursion into China", China wouldnt able to flourish during later times either? or rather it caused more than 300 hundred years of wars and disunity, which delayed the flourish.
The answer to your point : no, one cannot. But for my sentence, it would be right. (as I envisage that it is with different reasoning from your one). The History of Sui significantly relates to the orgins of North Wei, and later transited into East Wei and North Qi, and then with subsequent development of history to Sui and then Tang dynasties.
The Sui and early Tang histories considerably interrelates the Han-civilization-process of nomadic tribe Xianbei. Without the new blood element, one may not say Tang's ruling elites had the same magnitude of open mindedness to use a lot of non-han officers or generals.
Also, it might not happen that Tangtaixong depolyed his strategies so successfully and flexibly in dealing with Turks, Toba (Tibetian at that time), and GuLi (nowadays, Korea) (of course, also thanks to his mighty army, of which quite a lot of them are non-Han-Tribes)
I have also read through the article, but it is about the debate on Where Lishimin's ancestor home town was
The debate on which town Li family originated is associated with the question of whether Li family was derived from Chinese or Xianbei clan, as the question of which town Li family originated was used by the Buddhist monk Falin to connect Li family to Toba clan of Xianbei despite Lishimin furiously dismissed Falin's claim. either you didnt thoroughly read the article or you are downplaying and deliberately ignoring the contents of this article which is written by the descendant of Lishimin. Here let me remind you
Charioteer, just pls answer the following simple root question:-
speaking of "simple root question", arent you aware of that Chinese family names are patrilineal that they are passed from father to children?
Originally posted by Xianpei
1. Is Lishimin's grandmother is a Xianbei people?
Chinese family names are patrilineal,like every Chinese clan, Lishimin and Li family never traced their lineage by maternal side,even if one disregard the patrilineal nature of Chinese family names instead of utilizing maternal side to explain ethnicity, then maternal side of Xianbei origin only occured in few generations in family history of Li clan while the vast majority of their maternal side still come from Chinese rather than Xianbei people. Can you then claim the Li family are Xianbei rather than Chinese? then since Lishimin regarded famous Chinese historical figures like Laozi, general Li Guang of Han dynasty, general Li Xin of Qin dynasty as the ancestors of Li family, would one also claim them as Xianbei rather than Chinese? and since Laozi was the founder of Daoism and his descendants somehow are regarded as Xianbei, can one also claim "Xianbei" actually invented Daoism as well? If one would also attribute the rise and success of Sui and Tang dynasties somehow to their Xianbei maternal side of few generations?
As if this would be regarded as somekind of "biological" explanation for the flourishing of Tang dynasty?
Originally posted by Xianbei
2. Is Lishimin's wife (out of a no. of wives) a Xianbei people? yes, the empress whose son later became the heir to Tangtaizong?
If a Chinese married his daughter to a Xianbei man, would the marriage changes his offspring, as well the clan he belongs to Chinese instead of its original Xianbei one? if the answer is yes, then many of the Xianbei around the Sui-Tang period should already be regarded as "Chinese" instead of "Xianbei" since you trace ones ancestry and attribute their ethnicity by maternal side instead of patrilineal. Then one could also claim Xiongnu and Tubo etc as "Chinese" since Chinese princesses were married to them by Han and Tang dynasty.Ofcourse, since Li family are "Xianbei", then Tang princesses marriage to the Tibetan Tubo kingdom would also make them "Xianbei" people. If the answer is no, then you need to explain why you would apply double standard on such issue.
Originally posted by Xianpei
If the answer is yes (Acutally the fact is recogniszed), then it needs not to debate on this topic (the Xianbei blood carried by Tangtaizong.
The answer to the claim of their family as "Xianbei" or "Tabgach" by the Li family is No. And indeed there shouldnt be any debate about their blood anymore, since they are the ultimate ones rather than you have the right of how to regard their own family and its history.
And this article by descendants of Li family have resolutely dismissed any claims disregarding their family's Chinese heritage just like Lishimin would and did furiously dismissed similar claims by the buddhist monk Falin
p.s. you can always use simple questions but get no simple answers And it would be especially true if you would take this history perspective of yours to question the Li family themselves. And they have already answered you in such article as the one i cited, but you are bold enough to downplay it. You cant neglect their voice at the same actually paying attention to them and their family history. dont you think?
Besides, attributing the rise and success of Tang dynasty to its Xianbei blood which is poorly represented by few examples of maternal side lineage is not only weak but also "racist".
above all, Chinese family names are patrilineal which are passed from father to Children.
Not to mention the possibility of Xianbei may also had "Chinese" blood. As modern genetic studies has found out that another nomadic people who like the Xianbei once resided to the north east, Daur people(which is said to be the descendants of Khitan) have combined more than 40% of haplogroup O3 and O2 in their Y-chromosome genetic makeup,which means the northern population(haplogroup O3, typical of Han Chinese and other Sino-Tibetan group) and southern population(haplogroup O2, typical of southern ethnic minorities, as well among Han population) of China migrated sometime prior to known history and had considerable genetic impact on the population of north east region. There is a chance that proto-Xianbei population was also affected by such unknown migration.
The youngest son would inherit family property doesnt mean he would also inherit the crown of "great khan", Chingis wasnt the youngest for taking the crown, "Great khan" must be elected by the khuriltai, they are two different conceptions. Besides, Ogedei was elected as the "Great khan" by the khuriltai in 1229,but Tolui died in 1232,which was after Ogedei became the "great khan".
Chinggis Qaan was not the last born but he was teh first of his kind, it needs someone to start a dynasty. actually the ShoM writes that gdai got ill and in a shamanistic ritual Tolui sacrificed himself to save gdai. whatever really happened, it seems obvious Tolui died before gdai became Qa'an.
Chingiskhan did actually prepare to lead the army himself against Jochi on the rumor and suspicion of his possible betrayal when Jochi didnt attend the meeting with Chingis in 1223.
source?
Its also known Jochi and Chagatai disliked each other for a long time.
this is indeed well known and it is also well known that Chinggis was impartial with his sons so this is not relevant to anything
Originally posted by Temujin
When Mongke was alive, Kaidu didnt revolt,but after Mongke's death,civil war broke out between the Mongols, not only between the descendants of Ogedei and Tolui because of their old differences on succession, but also between the Toluis for the right of new succession.
Qaidu didn't revolted earlier because he didn't yet had a large enough support and power. and after Mngkes detah there was no civil war, only after Kubilai challenged Arigh Bkes election as Qa'an there was a war between theb two, but only in the Ulus Tolui, not the whole Mongol empire.
Chagatai khanate was in support of Arigboka first but then switched to Kubilai's side, for this reason Arigboka attacked Chagatai khanate but he was eventually defeated by Chagatais.
Chaghataids were at war with Hlg, who supported Kubilai so it is not exactly true that Chaghatayids supported Kubilai.
Chinggis Qaan was not the last born but he was teh first of his kind, it needs someone to start a dynasty. actually the ShoM writes that gdai got ill and in a shamanistic ritual Tolui sacrificed himself to save gdai. whatever really happened, it seems obvious Tolui died before gdai became Qa'an.
"Tolui, also rendered Toluy or Tolui Khan (Mongolian: Толуй; Chinese: 拖雷; pinyin: Tuōli; c. 1190 1232), " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolui "He was elected supreme khan in 1229, according to the kurultai held after Genghis' death, although this was never really in doubt as it was Genghis' clear wish that he be succeeded by gedei" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogedei
It is clear that Tolui died in 1232, while Ogedei was elected as the Great khan by the Kurultai in 1229. So Tolui died after after Ogedei became the Great khan. also, the election of "Great khan" by the kurultai ever since Chingis became something dictated by the descendants of Chingis thus indeed he was "the first of his kind". Still it doesnt mean the Youngest son would inherit the crown of "Great khan" other than inheritance of family properties.We know Chingis favored his third son Ogedei to be the "great khan".
and a small note on the ShoM(secret history of the Mongols), "According to the Secret History of the Mongols, Tolui sacrificed himself in order to cure gdei from a very severe illness during a campaign in China. The shamans had determined that the root of gdei's illness were China's spirits of the earth and the water, who were upset that their subjects had been driven away and their land devastated. Offering land, animals and people had only lead to an aggravation of gdeis illness, but when they offered to sacrifice a family member, gdei got better immediately. Tolui volunteered and died directly after consuming a cursed drink"
writings like this is really confusing and doubtful, it simply doesnt make any sense when the Mongol would sacrifice the life of its own prince to calm the angry Chinese spirit ignited by the Mongol plunders and vandalization rather than change this kind of behaviours? besides if this is something canbe taken as creditable then we should witness more Mongol leaders mysteriously fell ill as we know the Mongol conquests werent confined to Ogedei's reign or confined only to the domain of China. Instead, this really sounds like a piece of Shamanistic chant than a piece of reliable history record. The Mongols were still superstitious of the Shamans, whether this circumstance was used to cover the truth behind Tolui's death or was used to force Tolui to commit suicide, it is an indication of a conspiracy against Tolui. Only that the literal meaning of ShoM is less convincing.
Originally posted by Temujin
source?
"Though the histories are unclear, there is evidence that Jochi conspired against Genghis, and that Genghis in return pondered a pre-emptive strike. When Genghis Khan returned home he sent for Jochi. When the latter refused to obey Genghis Khan sent Chagatai and gedei against him. But before it came to open hostilities, news came that Jochi had died in February 1227." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochi
Originally posted by Temujin
this is indeed well known and it is also well known that Chinggis was impartial with his sons so this is not relevant to anything
It is said on one such occasion Chagatai despised Jochi as bastard son. If thats not "relevant".
Originally posted by Temujin
Qaidu didn't revolted earlier because he didn't yet had a large enough support and power. and after Mngkes detah there was no civil war, only after Kubilai challenged Arigh Bkes election as Qa'an there was a war between theb two, but only in the Ulus Tolui, not the whole Mongol empire.
There was a war in the Ulus Tolui between Arigh Boke and Kubilai, war between Arigh Boke and Chagatai khanate, war between Chagatai khanate and Ilkhanate, war between Ulus Ogedei and Kubilai,Wars broke out due to succession crisis definitely werent confined to the "Ulus Tolui".
Regarding Kaidu's revolt,whats important is he saw the infighting between Toluis as the opportunity to reclaim Ogedeis right as "great khan", and for this goal 30 long years of war were waged against Kubilai's empire.But when Mongke was alive were still united, when they were united, potential rival like Kaidu was still passive force.
Originally posted by Temujin
Chaghataids were at war with Hlg, who supported Kubilai so it is not exactly true that Chaghatayids supported Kubilai.
"Mngke died during his campaign against Song China. Kublai (Qubilai) succeeded him as Great Khan in 1260, but faced a succession crisis. His younger brother, Arigboka (Arigboqa), claimed the great khanate. Kublai brought him to heel with the help of Alghu, the Chagatai Khan. However, Alghu began to act independently of Kublai." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate
Alghu supported Arigh Boke initially, but Arigh Boke attacked the Chagatai khanate, whether it was due to Chagatais switch side or for the purpose of gaining foothold in Chagatai khanate for prolonged resistance against Kubilai's assaults Arigh Boke's attack on Alghu still had him pushed further towards Kubilai.
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