Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

AA : Antediluvian Africa - The Iron Age

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Tk101 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AA : Antediluvian Africa - The Iron Age
    Posted: 27-Feb-2008 at 16:56

well i too wish to  edify the collective knowledge of common people about africa.  Here i found some interesting articles about the Iron age.

IRON IN AFRICA: REVISING THE HISTORY

24-06-2002 10:00 pm Paris - Africa developed its own iron industry some 5,000 years ago, according to a formidable new scientific work from UNESCO Publishing that challenges a lot of conventional thinking on the subject.iron_roads_lg.jpg Iron technology did not come to Africa from western Asia via Carthage or Merowe as was long thought, concludes "Aux origines de la mtallurgie du fer en Afrique, Une anciennet mconnue: Afrique de l'Ouest et Afrique centrale". The theory that it was imported from somewhere else, which - the book points out - nicely fitted colonial prejudices, does not stand up in the face of new scientific discoveries, including the probable existence of one or more centres of iron-working in west and central Africa andthe Great Lakes area.

The authors of this joint work, which is part of the "Iron Roads in Africa" project (see box), are distinguished archaeologists, engineers, historians, anthropologists and sociologists. As they trace the history of iron in Africa, including many technical details and discussion of the social, economic and cultural effects of the industry, they restore to the continent "this important yardstick of civilisation that it has been denied up to now," writes Doudou Dine, former head ofUNESCO's Division of Intercultural Dialogue, who wrote the book's preface.

But the facts speak for themselves. Tests on material excavated since the 1980s show that iron was worked at least as long ago as 1500 BC at Termit, in eastern Niger, while iron did not appear in Tunisia or Nubia before the 6th century BC. At Egaro, west of Termit, material has been dated earlier than 2500 BC, which makes African metalworking contemporary with that of the Middle East.

The roots of metallurgy in Africa go very deep. However, French archaeologist Grard Quchon cautions that "having roots does not mean they are deeper than those of others," that "it is not important whether African metallurgy is the newest or the oldest" and that if new discoveries "show iron came from somewhere else, this would not make Africa less or more virtuous."

"In fact, only in Africa do you find such a range of practices in the process of direct reduction [a method in which metal is obtained in a single operation without smelting],and metal workers who were so inventive that they could extract iron in furnaces made out of the trunks of banana trees," says Hamady Bocoum, one of the authors.

This ingenuity was praised in the early 19th century by the Tunisian scholar Mohamed el-Tounsy, who told of travelling in Chad and Sudan and coming across spears and daggers made "with the skill of the English" and iron piping with "bends and twists like some European pipes, but more elegant and graceful and shining so brightly they seem to be made of silver."

There is a true iron culture in Africa. In many communities, iron is so revered it has been given divine status. In Nigeria's Yoruba country, forges became the symbol of royalty at the end of the 9th century and Ogun, the god of iron, became the protector of the kingdom. Even today, Ogun is the chief deity of anyone working with iron.

The role of blacksmiths is very important in African culture. In the Yatenga region of northern Burkina Faso, Bamogo, the ancestor of blacksmiths, is considered the saviour of humanity. It is he who supposedly makes the knife that cuts the umbilical cord, the axe that chops wood, the pick used to till the soil or help dig a grave - all of them instruments of fundamental importance for people.

According to Pierre de Maret, who teaches at the Free University of Brussels, the Bantu people spread across central Africa "because of their superiority as farmers, achieved by using metal to clear forest areas, and the military superiority they acquired from having iron weapons."

Among the Yoruba, it seems equally clear that the unification of the country by supporters of Oduduwa in the 10th century was very largely due to military dominance gained through the use of iron, says Isaac Adeagbo Akinjogbin, of Obafemi Awolowo University, in Ile-Ife (Nigeria). Under the Oduduwa dynasty, each kingdom had enough foundries and forges to produce all the metal tools it needed.

"In 17th and 18th century Africa, at the height of the transatlantic slave trade, the Yoruba continued to use iron they produced themselves, regarding imported iron as religiously impure and 'unresponsive.'"

Iron technology became a key part of African spiritual life and these skills have persisted to this day. Just like their ancestors, who had "the habit of gathering bits of metal of different kinds and origins to make into new objects," says Bocoum," today's craftsmen have incorporated traditional know-how in the production of modern tools.

Associations of blacksmiths, such as the one in the Medina district of Bamako, are flourishing, and turning out all kinds of everyday metal objects, mainly from scrap. Though it seemed to be disappearing at one stage because it was not commercially competitive, iron craftsmanship is today enjoying a revival in Africa.

****

The Iron Roads Project

Launched by UNESCO in 1991 as part of the World Decade for Cultural Development (1988-97), the Iron Roads in Africa project aims to make the continent's technological culture better known, so as to help it better confront the challenges of development. It encourages inter-disciplinary scientific research in working with iron that could influence industrial development strategies of African countries whilst offering a framework for cultural, artistic and educational activity.

Along with the Silk Roads, the Roads of Faith and the Slave Route, the Iron Roads project boosts cultural diversity and counters racism by pointing to Africa's contribution to the ideals of tolerance, mutual understanding and dialogue. This same goal is found in the history books published by UNESCO, such as the "History of Humanity" and the "General History of Africa".

A series of scientific meetings, in Maputo (1991), Abuja (1995), Geneva and Paris (1999), Addis Ababa (2000) and Paris (2001), organized as part of the project, resulted in a brochure called "Les Routes de Fer en Afrique" (Paris, UNESCO 2000) and a book called "Aux origines de la mtallurgie du fer en Afrique, Une anciennet mconnue: Afrique de l'Ouest et Afrique centrale" (UNESCO Publishing 2002).

The project includes a multi-disciplinary travelling exhibition, which was shown at UNESCO Headquarters from 26 October to 17 November 1999 along with the screening of about 30 films from all over the world about metal-working in Africa.

A special "Iron Roads in Africa Prize" was created in 2000 as part of the 7th International African Arts and Crafts Trade Show in Ouagadougou and its first winner was a young Burkinabe, Thomas Bamogo.

The Africa Iron Routes project is overseen by a 16-member scientific committee and administered by UNESCO's Department of Intercultural Dialogue and Pluralism for a Culture of Peace.

*****

The book is currently available only in French. An English edition will be published towards the end of 2002.
Sales contact: Cristina Laje, tel: (+33) (0) 1 45 68 49 30, email: c.laje@unesco.org
Photos: Solange Belin, tel: (+33) (0) 1 45 68 46 87 email: s.belin@unesco.org

Jasmina Sopova
Bureau of Public Information
Editorial Section
Tel: (+33) (0)1 45 68 47 18
Email: j.sopova@unesco.org

Consult the website:
http://www.unesco.org/culture/ww/africa

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=3432&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

 
 
on Carbon Steel
 
General Info:
 

Africa's Ancient Steelmakers

Monday, Sep. 25, 1978
 

The Haya were centuries ahead of European metallurgists

When Anthropologist Peter Schmidt first visited the Haya people of Tanzania on the western shore of Lake Victoria, nine years ago, his goal was to study their complex heritage, which is passed orally from one generation to the next. On that and subsequent trips, he not only accomplished what he had set out to do but made a serendipitous discovery that alters the history of technology.

Writing in the current issue of Science, Schmidt and Metallurgy Professor Donald Avery, both of Brown University, report that as long as 2,000 years ago, the Haya people were producing medium-carbon steel in preheated, forced-draft furnaces. A technology this sophisticated was not developed again until nearly 19 centuries later, when German-born Metallurgist Karl Wilhelm Siemens, who is generally credited with using an open-hearth furnace, produced the first high-grade carbon steel.

Schmidt was led to his discovery by Haya elders, who showed him a "shrine tree" that they said marked the site of ancient iron smelters long worked by their people. Because the Haya can now buy inexpensive, European-made steel tools and make more money raising coffee and other crops, they stopped producing their own steel some 50 years ago. Thus the only Haya who could recall details of the steelmaking process were very old, and as Schmidt and Avery write, this knowledge was "threatened every day by the passage of time, by death and by age-related infirmities occurring in this quickly shrinking group of expert smelters."

Two years ago, at the request of the scientists and working entirely from memory, the Haya constructed a traditional furnace. It was 1.6 meters (5 ft.) high, cone-shaped, made of sl*g and mud and built over a pit packed with partially burned swamp grass; these charred reeds provided the carbon that combined with the molten iron ore to produce steel. Eight ceramic blowpipes, or tuyeo a goatskin bellows outside. Using these pipes to force preheated air into the furnace, which was fueled by charcoal, the Haya were able to achieve temperatures higher than 1800 C (3275 F.), high enough to produce their carbon steel.

Schmidt and Avery, certain that the Haya steelmaking process was very old, set out to trace its origins. What they found was beyond even their expectations. Last year, in excavations on the western shore of Lake Victoria, they discovered the remnants of 13 furnaces nearly identical in design to the one the Haya had built. Using radioactive-carbon dating processes on the charcoal, they found that these furnaces were between 1,500 and 2,000 years old, which proved that the sophisticated steelmaking techniques demonstrated by the contemporary Haya were indeed practiced by their ancestors. This discovery, the scientists conclude, "will help to change scholarly and popular ideas that technological sophistication developed in Europe but not in Africa."

(P.S i detest the constant comparison to europe, as if Europe was the zenith of human Civilization. )
 
 
excerpt:
 

Steel was known in antiquity, and may have been produced by managing the bloomery so that the bloom contained carbon.[9] Some of the first steel comes from East Africa, dating back to 1400 BCE.[10] In the 4th century BCE steel weapons like the Falcata were produced in the Iberian peninsula. The Chinese of the Han Dynasty (202 BCE 220 CE) created steel by melting together wrought iron with cast iron, gaining an ultimate product of a carbon-intermediatesteel by the 1st century CE.[11][12] Along with their original methods of forging steel, the Chinese had also adopted the production methods of creating Wootz steel, an idea imported from India to China by the 5th century CE.[13] Wootz steel was produced in India and Sri Lanka from around 300 BCE. This early steel-making method employed the use of a wind furnace, blown by the monsoon winds.[14] Also known as Damascus steel, wootz is famous for its durability and ability to hold an edge. It was originally created from a number of different materials including various trace elements. It was essentially a complicated alloy with iron as its main component. Recent studies have suggested that carbon nanotubes were included in its structure, which might explain some of its legendary qualities, though given the technology available at that time, they were probably produced more by chance than by design.[15] Crucible steel was produced in Merv by 9th to 10th century CE.

In the 11th century, there is evidence of the production of steel in Song China using two techniques: a "berganesque" method that produced inferior, inhomogeneous steel and a precursor to the modern Bessemer process that utilized partial decarbonization via repeated forging under a cold blast

 
I'm not sure about a definitive date but it would seem around the nieghborhood of 1400 bc and possibly further back.
 
but i do have some questions, and i wonder if anyone on the AE could answers them.
-How was iron spirtual to these people? i thought it was outlandish a bit, but i have to admit that i have never heard of it.
- how high of a grade is this Carbon steel?
- what was its predominate useage in the Great Lakes area...i would guess for mainly agriculture but I thought they had poor soil..could be wrong...
 
please add on to this in hopes of collecting as much information about the iron age as possible
 
Thank you


Edited by Tk101 - 28-Feb-2008 at 02:46
there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 04:39

Unbelievable. One of the most important research fields in Ancient Africa is precisely the history of Iron in that continent. There is a change Iron works were invented in Africa, although evidence is not conclusive as yet.

However, I am amazed people in this forum failed to notice this thread. Too bad

 



Edited by pinguin - 02-Mar-2008 at 04:40
Back to Top
Tk101 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2008 at 23:56
I agree pinguin, this only reflcets people's interest in the continent it self...the amazing  part to me is the fact that this is the place where humans spent most of the existance there, yet alot of historians, scientist and the like no little of its history ...You can find a wealth of information on prehistoric africa and the knowledge decrease realtive to time as one progresses.  but any case...I wonder why little  innovation came from it once steel was made, esp in application? also i was curious, Pinguin what kind of metals did New worlders forge? Hopefully, one day as the continent continue towards stablity more research will be done...
there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2008 at 00:05
Originally posted by Tk101

...I wonder why little  innovation came from it once steel was made, esp in application?
...
 
Africa was a relatively isolated continent. People everywhere tend to be conservative and keep theirs ways of life during centuries and milenia intact, at least external forces push them to change. That explains why Australians, for instance, had very little advances in 40.000 years. The major developments usually happen in the crossroads of commerce, and why the Middle East (that was in the middle of large populations expanding) developed relatively fast, and why the Mediterranean followed. In the case of Africa, influences from outside existed, from the North, the Indonesians in Madagascar and afterwards the Arabs, but they were not quite strong like in Eurasia. So, innovation was not as quick either.
 
Originally posted by Tk101

...
also i was curious, Pinguin what kind of metals did New worlders forge?
.
 
Some people of the New World, like the inuits, mastered processing asteroidal iron, but there was not really a major iron industry in the Americas at all. However, cooper, bronze, gold, silver and platinum were quite common in theirs industry. Incas produced bells, mazes, axes and many tools in bronze and in large scale. They also made surgery tools in that material.
 
Originally posted by Tk101

...
Hopefully, one day as the continent continue towards stablity more research will be done...
 
Let's hope so. Research has advanced quite a bit, however common people still don't care much about it. Everybody's attentions in Africa focus in Egypt, but not down south.
 


Edited by pinguin - 03-Mar-2008 at 00:07
Back to Top
Tk101 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 19:12
You have a great point Pinguin perhaps through constant promotion of such ideas and discoveries of not only african but ancient americans and others perhaps we can draw more people to pay attention.
there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 19:22

The case of the Americas is different. The past is known with a great degree of detail. Studying Maya scripts or Peruvian archaeology is mainstream schollarship. The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it.

 

Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2008 at 22:29
Some people of the New World, like the inuits, mastered processing asteroidal iron, but there was not really a major iron industry in the Americas at all.
 
 
Depends on how you define major.  There are remains of pre columbian direct process iron smelters in Ohio, Virginia, Georgia and Michigan.  There were several sites on the New Jersey Coast that were believed to be iron smelters but were destroyed by developers before modern techniques were available to investigators.  All but one of the sites are situated in areas rich in Bog Iron ore.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 00:08
Originally posted by red clay

Some people of the New World, like the inuits, mastered processing asteroidal iron, but there was not really a major iron industry in the Americas at all.
 
 
Depends on how you define major.  There are remains of pre columbian direct process iron smelters in Ohio, Virginia, Georgia and Michigan.  There were several sites on the New Jersey Coast that were believed to be iron smelters but were destroyed by developers before modern techniques were available to investigators.  All but one of the sites are situated in areas rich in Bog Iron ore.
 
Hi Red Clay,
 
If you count with evidence of these ironworkers from Ohio, Virginia, Georgia and Michigan, please post it. I am very interested on it and I'd welcome. Please post it in the section "history of the Americas".
 
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 01:59
Originally posted by pinguin

The case of the Americas is different. The past is known with a great degree of detail. Studying Maya scripts or Peruvian archaeology is mainstream schollarship. The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it.

How many times do people from the US have to point out that Latin Americans aren't the only ones who know (or want to know) about Pre-Columbian Populations before you acknowledge that people outside Latin America know about Indians? We in America (the USA) as part of the public school program learn about the pre-Contact population of the Americas. If you are lucky to live close to a heritage cite, like I was, you often take field trips there. As I have stated in another thread in my public school growing up we, on numerous occasions, went to an Amerindian heritage cite called Waterloo Village, in lovely Stanhope, NJ and not to far from Jeff Lake Day Camp, a gorgeous camp that I attended when I was younger. Latin Americans are not the only ones with a knowledge/desire for knowledge of Amerindian populations who lived in their country. If you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes. This was off topic and I apologize for the digression, but I had to let Pinguin know that his Latin American chauvinism would not go unchecked.

Edited by King John - 16-Jun-2008 at 02:04
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 02:19
Originally posted by King John

 .... How many times do people from the US have to point out that Latin Americans aren't the only ones who know (or want to know) about Pre-Columbian Populations before you acknowledge that people outside Latin America know about Indians? We in America (the USA) as part of the public school program learn about the pre-Contact population of the Americas. If you are lucky to live close to a heritage cite, like I was, you often take field trips there. As I have stated in another thread in my public school growing up we, on numerous occasions, went to an Amerindian heritage cite called Waterloo Village, in lovely Stanhope, NJ and not to far from Jeff Lake Day Camp, a gorgeous camp that I attended when I was younger. Latin Americans are not the only ones with a knowledge/desire for knowledge of Amerindian populations who lived in their country. If you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes. This was off topic and I apologize for the digression, but I had to let Pinguin know that his Latin American chauvinism would not go unchecked.
 
King John,
 
If you are kind enough, please open a thread about the topic in the "History of the Americas" section. It is amazing that very few people, except myself, contributes there. So, I would be very glad you inform us how the ancient Amerindian heritage is feel in the United States.
 
I remember I open a thread about the Amerindian heritage in the Americas and people from the U.S. and Europe made every effort to show me Anglo-America was free of such influences. If I don't recall wrong you were also in that thread, don't you?
 
As far as I know, I have heared several times Americans denying they have any Amerindian heritage or ancestry. Perhaps I have had bad luck and I have met some people that don't represent the people of the U.S. Please correct me with facts in the "History of the Americas" forum and show me wrong when I said the Amerindian heritage is more important for Latin Americans than to Anglo Americans, and by far.
 
 
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 04:48
Latin Americans are not the only ones with a knowledge/desire for knowledge of Amerindian populations who lived in their country. If you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes. This was off topic and I apologize for the digression, but I had to let Pinguin know that his Latin American chauvinism would not go unchecked.
 
ClapClap Nicely stated.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 16:42
I was indeed in that thread. However my objections, in said thread, had to do with the fact that you were downplaying all European influences in the US, which is preposterous. No one ever said that Americans were free of Amerindian influences, they just pointed out that the influences that you were claiming for the Amerindians were more European than Amerindian. There are many sports team with Amerindians or Amerindian themes as Mascots.

What Americans have denied any Amerindian heritage or ancestry. I have heard you deny people American status because their family hasn't been here for 100+ years. When did you say that "Amerindian heritage is more important for Latin Americans than to Anglo Americans, and by far?" What you said here was that "The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it." That says nothing about Amerindian heritage being more important to Latin Americans than Other Americans. This is another chauvinistic view of yours, again if you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes.
Back to Top
Tk101 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 17:54
While it is an interesting conversation at hand but i must insist on staying on topic. which is the African Iron age. which btw do any of you have any info on the topic. if so lets discuss and share...if not please refer other inqures/comments to their proper forums
thanks :)
there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 18:04
My apologies for the digression, Tk101.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 18:11

It's very possible and accurate for some Americans to deny Amerindian heritage.  If your family arrived to this country from Italy or Germany or wherever 3-4 generations ago then no, they don't have Amerindian heritage.  But that doesn't mean they aren't aware of the contributions made by Native Americans.  This silly little ball of rock and water we call Earth isn't big enough for the past to have played out as you would like it to have.

The history of the Americas is known only to a point and only for certain cultures.  In great detail?  No, if it were we wouldn't be having this debate.  The vastness of this half of the world we call the Americas has only begun to be surveyed in depth.  The more we look the more we shall find.  The more we find we will realize just how little we really know.

 
And back on topic, several years ago there was a geologic study being done in Argentina, unrelated to Archeology.  By accident geologists found signs of hearths and fire pits.  They had experts in prehistory look at these pits and it was consensus that these were small direct process Iron Smelters.  Subsequent testing proved this out.
 
References? I can't recall the publication but it was a mainstream pub. and shouldn't be hard to find.
 
BTW  I find it interesting that you would ask for refs. etc.  You never seem to see the need from your side.
 


Edited by red clay - 16-Jun-2008 at 18:22
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 19:02
Originally posted by King John

I was indeed in that thread. However my objections, in said thread, had to do with the fact that you were downplaying all European influences in the US, which is preposterous. No one ever said that Americans were free of Amerindian influences, they just pointed out that the influences that you were claiming for the Amerindians were more European than Amerindian. There are many sports team with Amerindians or Amerindian themes as Mascots.
.

Mascots aren't a good sympthom. Cleveland uses this.
 
Just imagine that Cleveland used a mascot like this.
 
Why it is not possible to offend that way African Americans but it is allowed with Indians surpasses me. That's not precisely what I mean for "honoring" the Amerindian Past.
 
Originally posted by King John


What Americans have denied any Amerindian heritage or ancestry. I have heard you deny people American status because their family hasn't been here for 100+ years.
.
 
Yes, I have. They are descendents of recent immigrants. So?
 
Originally posted by King John

When did you say that "Amerindian heritage is more important for Latin Americans than to Anglo Americans, and by far?" What you said here was that "The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it." That says nothing about Amerindian heritage being more important to Latin Americans than Other Americans. This is another chauvinistic view of yours, again if you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes.
 
It is just what I observe looking to people like you, that reacted so fiercely when the very mention of some Amerindian heritage in Anglo America existed.
 
You convinced me that in there nobody appreciated it.
 
And now you are changing your mind.
 
Please, fix your possition, because is impossible to shot such a moving target. Wink
 


Edited by pinguin - 16-Jun-2008 at 19:04
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 20:50
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by King John

I was indeed in that thread. However my objections, in said thread, had to do with the fact that you were downplaying all European influences in the US, which is preposterous. No one ever said that Americans were free of Amerindian influences, they just pointed out that the influences that you were claiming for the Amerindians were more European than Amerindian. There are many sports team with Amerindians or Amerindian themes as Mascots.
.

Mascots aren't a good sympthom. Cleveland uses this.


 

Just imagine that Cleveland used a mascot like this.


 

Why it is not possible to offend that way African Americans but it is allowed with Indians surpasses me. That's not precisely what I mean for "honoring" the Amerindian Past.

 

Originally posted by King John

What Americans have denied any Amerindian heritage or ancestry. I have heard you deny people American status because their family hasn't been here for 100+ years.
.

 

Yes, I have. They are descendents of recent immigrants. So?

 

Originally posted by King John


When did you say that "Amerindian heritage is more important for Latin Americans than to Anglo Americans, and by far?" What you said here was that "The problem with the Americas is that, although is a favorite between specialists, the general public outside Latin America knows (or want to know) too little about it." That says nothing about Amerindian heritage being more important to Latin Americans than Other Americans. This is another chauvinistic view of yours, again if you want to talk about Chile that's fine but don't paint with such broad strokes.

 

It is just what I observe looking to people like you, that reacted so fiercely when the very mention of some Amerindian heritage in Anglo America existed.

 

You convinced me that in there nobody appreciated it.

 

And now you are changing your mind.

 

Please, fix your possition, because is impossible to shot such a moving target. Wink

 


I'm going to reply to this ridiculous post in the thread you started in the History of the Americas section, so as not to take up space in this thread with more digressions that show your ignorance. TK101 again my apologies for these digressions.
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226
  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 21:12
Please, fix your possition, because is impossible to shot such a moving target. Wink
 
 
Also difficult to get off a decent shot when your dodging and weaving yourself.Cheeky
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 23:07
Originally posted by red clay

Please, fix your possition, because is impossible to shot such a moving target. Wink
 
 
Also difficult to get off a decent shot when your dodging and weaving yourself.Cheeky

Sleepy

 

Back to Top
Tk101 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 18-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60
  Quote Tk101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 00:47
Its Quite okay,King John, I hope i wasn't to forceful with what i said.  I apologize if a cam off bg headed. Cheers My only plea was to mantain the topic. ..thanks..
there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.