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Solution to the Balkan crisis?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Solution to the Balkan crisis?
    Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 23:28
Originally posted by Theodore Felix


Which one am I giving you now the Serbian view or the Bosnian view, or am I giving you a neutral perspective.


None of us are neutral. You know that as well as I.


If you say so...

I am really giving you an answer composed under the ideologies of a secret Bosno-Serbian plan to take over the Balkans Wink


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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2008 at 23:58
Fact is that you took a particular stand on the issue, one that stated that you were against independence and for autonomy... with this you are obviously going against the wishes of one party. If so, how can you say that you are neutral?

Even if you firmly believe it, Balkans is Balkans and events tie us all. Even me, as apathetic as I am towards Bosnia, cant pretend to be neutral.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 00:49
I did not take a stance as of yet... I gave a viable example that might work
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 01:30
Originally posted by es_bih


I am sorry but that stance sounds childish to me. Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Republic neither actually truly denote that they are the sole Macedonia. Just by using simple logic one can note that is not the case.

If it were The Sole Republic of Macedonia, the Sole Macedonian Republic, the True Macedonia, etc... then it would actually logically denote a single Macedonia.

Should we call Istanbul the Former Constantinopolitian city of Istanbul? The former part of the Roman Empire's province of Italia the republic of Italy?

If they do not use a sole, or single, or anything that actually denotes that then it is not the only one. Greece has the right to rename itself Macedonia too by all means if it feels that its rights are being threatened.

or the Macedono-Hellenic republic.
Please es Bih your comparisons have no relevance or parallels over this particular issue. I have not stated they be called anything 'former this ' or whatever,  but talking on a bare minum level needed by greece to move forward. They can call themselves whatever they want, but it has to make sure the inference of ownership is not there by implication.
 
The subtleties are enough to infer certain rights of ownership even if its not explicity labeled. Such things may seem trivial to you and even more so by ill-informed observers making judgements based more on sentiment, rather than the stated positions but - in a propaganda charged sitution, with major historical revisionism and certain maps being circulated by (or out from) FYROM - the 'childishness' of the Greeks may be put into a more understandable context. This compromise at least clears up, with no misunderstanding whatsover, that explictly and implicitly they are a one type of macedonian. This future proofs any complications going forward. If the FYROM doesnt want to give that total assurance to Greece, then this only will cause more suspicions.
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:05
I understand that position as well. There are quite a few maps and histories circulating around the Balkans that are not so authentic and arouse sentiments of others. I understand that Greece wants to claim ownership of the name as well. However, this is not the right way either. In my mind Macedonia is simple enough, FYROM is wrong; however, what name would they use that would appease both sides enough that both could agree to it?


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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:23
Just a note, following Leonidas posts about suspicions. Remember that the whole thing did not start good at all from the begining. Very bad moves were made.

1. When you are about to gain autonomy and create your state, the first thing that is sensibe to do is to send your foreign minister to your neighbours and create some good relations. Maybe, say "you know guys, we're getting independend and we plan to do this and that".

2. The first provocation from day 1, was the use of a tetrachtys sun. That is ofcourse the emblem of Vergina, but it is as well a religious symbol of the Greeks.

Those two points were definetely not good moves to make a good start.


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  Quote Suren Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 06:31
Originally posted by Yugoslav

Is there any solution to the problems the Balkans face? Does anyone have an idea? Solving one problem seems only to close and permanently lock broken doors, as well as open new ones. Please discuss here and share your thoughts. 


An atomic bomb the same answer for Middle east conflict!Big%20smile
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 07:39
Well, if we bomb the Balkans, then i will die. And i do not like that outcome.Tongue
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 08:43
I will die too and all the nice coasts of the adriatic, ionian, aegian and black sea will be vanished.

Ok, but seriously now. If we look on the past of Greece and Bulgaria. What was the key factor to change completely the situation to a good relationship? We should start from the successfull senarios maybe and collect as much usefull information as possible.


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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 09:25
Ok, but seriously now. If we look on the past of Greece and Bulgaria. What was the key factor to change completely the situation to a good relationship?

Hmm, I don't know how long lasting this frienship will be.
I'd say, we became friends after lot's of wars, which resulted in eliminating minority presence to both countries. We also have a common enemy. Bulgaria faces huge internal problems, to look southwards.
Being both in the EU I think works very positively, because one of Bulgaria's biggest goals was to gain access to the Aegean, and thus to the Mediterranean, without having to cross through Turkey. That's why Serbia, being an ally of Greece was given free access to Thessaloniki port since the Blakan wars.  With EU regulations, Bulgaria has no limitations in using Greek ports for trading.

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 10:51
Xristar, what makes you have doubts about the lasting period of good Greco-Bulgarian relations? What could end it right now?

Both Serbia and Bulgaria were Greece allies until that alliance broke up when they pushed the Ottomans away from the Balkans. The breaking up resulted the blocking of the aegian access to Bulgaria and free access to Serbia who remained faithfull. This is solved for a long time now and i don't see any reason why it could happen again.

The keys to improved relations have been many. As you said, a common "enemy" and the Bulgarian pro-Greek support in the 70s. Bulgaria showed generally a very improved behaviour towards Greece even during communism years. This was later followed by Greek support when the communist regime ended. The blockade had been removed and the trading relations flourished. At the time speaking Russia-Bulgaria-Greece become main actors in the transportation of natural gass to southern europe.

So far, i don't see any worries. What could happen do you think?


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 11:09
Originally posted by xristar

With EU regulations, Bulgaria has no limitations in using Greek ports for trading.
 
I am not sure in what I am going to write but I guess that actually Bulgaria does not have much to trade via Mediterranean Sea. Last 50 years all produced stocks went to SU via Black Sea or by trains and tracks. In any case if something is traded Bulgaria most likely use Greek trade fleet for that so Greece is benefiting from that.
 
One more thing, Leonidas and other claimed that Greece is against monopolizing of the name and Macedonian herritage by Slav Macedonians and might share it with them. I do not know about official Greek state position but my experience with discussion with Greeks is totaly opposite. You guys(at least most I ever told to) are ready to monopolize all  ancient herritage in the Balkans. Wink Somewhere in depth of you sits an opinion that everything was either Greek or Hellenized untill all sorts of barbars came to be influenced by shining Greek civilization by ethnic cleansing Shocked Many Greeks simply repeate it like a mantra. Why do I mention this? Because it is your national myth which is neither true nor allows you to establish trully good relationships with your neighbours. Exactly as ours stereotypes about you.


Edited by Anton - 15-Feb-2008 at 11:13
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 12:33
I do not know about official Greek state position but my experience with discussion with Greeks is totaly opposite

Totally correct. Greeks as a people believe they should have the monoply on the name, but the official state has made a copromise (although it had been officially declared by all greek parties that Greece shall never accept a name with the term 'Macedonia' in it, in mid '90s) and accepted the use of 'Macedonia' IN the name.

Xristar, what makes you have doubts about the lasting period of good Greco-Bulgarian relations? What could end it right now?

I don't know. Things change.

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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 12:40
+ people are not diplomats, they don't care about the practical solutions and obviously they are very pissed off.


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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2008 at 04:34
Originally posted by Anton

One more thing, Leonidas and other claimed that Greece is against monopolizing of the name and Macedonian herritage by Slav Macedonians and might share it with them. I do not know about official Greek state position but my experience with discussion with Greeks is totaly opposite. You guys(at least most I ever told to) are ready to monopolize all  ancient herritage in the Balkans. Wink 
Just the name, not the heritage part which isnt in the scope of the official disagreement. Many people  on the outside looking in, mistake the grassroots Greek opinion with that of Greek national policies, they are both different enough on this subject. Though this political compromise wasn't the initial view taken and Greece could of handled this better at the beginning of FYROM's birth.


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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 02:55
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by HEROI

The balkan solution will come only when people are separated in states were they speak the same language and were they have the same national identity.Only then will their human right be respected,not as a minority in a state who does not recognise them or dehumanise them.
 
There is no reason whatsoever why the Albanian minority in Macedonia who lives across the border of Albania be part of the modern state of Macedonia,and there is no back-up logic nither.
 
This is completely wrong statement! There are plenty of different minorities living in other European states without any conflicts and territorial claims. Balkan solution will come only when people like you change your point of view. What do you suggest? Population exchange? Plenty of people won't go from places they live for centuries. Changes of borders? Typical reason for conflicts. As an Albanian -- will you agree to get rid of territories inhabited by Greek, Vlach, Slavonic and Roma speaking population?  What are you going to do with the later? Suggest them to create their own state? Where?
 
Where did i sugest population exchange?????????
 
Your answer has nothing to do with my previous post anyway,i think you just got my post there and answered something that has no logical conection with what i have posted.
 
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 03:19
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by HEROI

In my opinion if there will be a future war in balkans that war will be fought over Macedonia.
In my opinion Greece does not want Macedonia to carry that name because not in a very distant future it might lay claims to the north of Greece.
 
The balkan solution will come only when people are separated in states were they speak the same language and were they have the same national identity.Only then will their human right be respected,not as a minority in a state who does not recognise them or dehumanise them.
 
There is no reason whatsoever why the Albanian minority in Macedonia who lives across the border of Albania be part of the modern state of Macedonia,and there is no back-up logic nither.
 
 
And i can understand claims of Greece and Albania as to their historical past ,because of their languages,who dont belong to a particular groop of languages,but Macedonians clearly speak Slavonic,and ancient Macedonia clearly was not a Slavonic state.
 
If slavo-macedonians dont like Bulgaria or Serbia they can make their own slavic state in the Balkans,and nobody is against slavic states,but they can not have historical claims as to ancient Macedonia,thats my opinion.But nither should Greeks have any claim to that nither,Macedonians clearly were not Greeks, and certainly have nothing to do with modern Greece.
 
I wonder what kind of people are the ones who are convincing the slavic population of Macedonia to be the decendants of Alexander the great.
 


Oh yeah... A greater Albania will solve the issue of Balkan instability...right...

No, when these nationalist blokes sh-t the f--k up and stop influencing politics for their own gains will there ever be peace.

Creating supernations or carving out historical entites etc to create a new nation etc... will only lead to more blood shed not stop it. That is what has been at issue for over a century. You have Kosovo... where both groups have a historic claim per having lived there for several hundred years... now... we also have that entity in one hand, then if it changes to the other, the former will want to reclaim it, and a cyclic form of violence ensues again... instead both sides' nationalist just simply sh--t the f--k up and we move on to a more peaceable resolotion one that allows for both... like what happened under Tito... a shared entity where both groups were respected, and Albanians could practice virtual independence while Serbs could see a map with Kosovo as part of Serbia and make sure that their religious centers in Kosovo are preserved.


 
Who spoke about greater Albania here???? And what do you call greater Albania?
Because logicaly speaking,a people that speak the same language and has the same national identity,should be living in a single national state,is that so nationalistic????But even thou i did not mention that and i dont suport that for the sake of peace in the balkans.
 
Of the terms GREATER in the Balkans,only Albanias is unfair,because the only GREATER in the balkans is the so called GREATER Albania who actually includes a overwelming majority of Albanians in historicaly Albanian lands.
 
There are not being carved supernationes ,and certainly there are no new nations being created there.
There never existed before 1912 a Serb state that included Kosovo.While the Kosovans Albanian identity is not being created now ,but it has existed before the creation of the Serb state.Kosovans never agreed Serb rule for one day,that is why there is no more reason to be under that rule,who produces Miloshevic's,armies that kill and rape.Kosovo can not go back to that,there is no reason why,there is no logic,there is no obligation,be it legal or moral.
 
When you find me a single map of a Serb state before 1912 that includes Kosovo,i will doubt my opinion,but ther simply does not exist one.The fight of Kosovans for indipendence started from the day Kosovo was given to Serbia out of the blue to serve Russian influence in the balkans.It is a well documented strugle.
 
But even if we leave history for a moment.Read this.
 
THERE IS A REGION WITH MORE THEN 90% ALBANIANS WHO DO NOT WISH TO BE RULED BY A STATE THAT HAS SISTEMATICALY DISCRIMINATED,OPRESSED THEM FOR A CENTURY,THAT JUST TEN YEARS AGO PLANED A FAILED GENOCIDE,WITH TENS OF THOUSENDS DEAD,THOUSENDS RAPED AND THOUSENDS MISSING.NOT ONLY IT HAS NOT APOLOGISED ,BUT IT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY A SISTEMATIC PROPAGANDA ON ALL LEVELS OF DIPLOMACY AND ASPECTS OF MEDIA TO MAKE ITSELF LOOK LIKE THE VICTIM,TO FORGET THE PAIN IT HAS CAUSED TO OTHERS AND TO DISINFORM AND MISSINFORM WITH CONTEMPT ABOUT ANYTHING ALBANIAN.  AND WITH WHAT SANE LOGIC DO YOU OR ANYBODY EXPECT PEOPLE OF KOSOVO TO GO BACK UNDER THE RULE OF THAT STATE??THEY WONT,THAT HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS TO LONG,AND IS JUST FAIR THAT THEY GET IT.
 


Edited by HEROI - 17-Feb-2008 at 03:24
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2008 at 16:41
Heroi do you think all these "GREAT" things bring peace into the Balkans?


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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 00:56
HEROI how many Albanians are there outside Albania? where do they reside in the Balkans?
 
You say its Albanians right to live under Albanian rule, then what about minorities in Albania?
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 18-Feb-2008 at 00:59
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 01:06
i expect Heroi will be in full support to hand over some villagers, and we'll take the Vlachs as wellWink
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