Kosovo

Fact remains that the demographic evolution of the Albanians changed greatly the ethnological structure of Kossovo. Albanians in the past weren't such a big majority as they're today.

I don't deny the right of the albanian people of Kossovo to have their own state, and even unite with Albania (if they want to).
The way however this whole thing happened, with NATO bombing Serbia, and fabricating stats etc, is what's bothering me.

Serbians were the majority until Turks wiped them out in 1897 remember? That's only a decade before the Balkan wars.

Serbs left the region following the Austrian-Turkish War in the 17th century. The Albanian element began their path to dominance during that time. By the 19th century Albanians were in majority by around 65%, which grew to around 70% in the Balkan war era. This was pushed both by the influx of Albanian "muhaxhers"(wanderers) that were forced to flee from areas of Novi Pazar and Nis and by Serbs leaving the province. A process of colonization began after 1912 that reduced the Albanian number of about 50%, which then regrew to 90% in modern day.

These are the numbers most generally used... ofcourse, there are variants that are used by different sides(for instance some Serbs still claim that Albs were around 30% during 1912)

and the other side is saying the same thing, they gave everything but complete indepandance but the kosovars would only settle for outright separation. The USA and most EU countries were going against the spirit of the UN mission in kosovo which was all about protecting not separating the province from Serbia.

I did recognize the other side of the equation, which is why I stated that "compromise" was useless. The way Albs saw it, the more time passed the more leverage Serbia was going to wield through a resurgent Russia, which seems to have been the view of the US also.

Staggered levels of independence over time with the serbs who can have some time to get accustomed to the idea would of achieved the same ends though it would of needed long term views and much more patience that we have seen. Now i tend to err on the side of minority self determination where practical, or virtual independence if not, however not by unnecessary force. I don't believe for a minute there was no other option than what we have witnessed, but hey the US get a new military base...

Neither side was going to back down. For Serbia, the waiting game was not necessarily a bad one. It simply could freeze the conflict until some event occurs that throws things in its direction.

Edited by Theodore Felix - 18-Feb-2008 at 16:19

Originally posted by Sarmat12 I have never heard about any Ossetian separatists in Russia. But with enough determination you can have "fire" everywhere including Bulgaria with the Muslim minority.

Originally posted by Sarmat12 Of course. Russia is the bad guy as always.  There are no any Georgians in Ossetia and Abkhazia and they are complitely independent in their internal and even external policy for more than 10 years. They in fact have much more reasons to declare independence than anyone else.

Originally posted by Illirac I can understand America supporting it's independence, it's in their interest that a war break out so that they can sell weapons, but I do not understand the Europeans: if they confirm  it then other nations like Scotland, Greenland and other can claim their independence - but they will not give it to them

At last someone talking without precautions on this matter! Bravo!

Originally posted by Illirac I myself am against the independence, thou they should have a great autonomy... and it's not fault of the Serbs that the Albanians overwhelmed them

Bravo again! I have stated before in a discussion with Heroi, that an attempt to give autonomy, equal rights, representation in the parliament and any other means that would give the same living standards to the Albanians as citizens, would be the optimal solution. I wonder though how this was never brought on to the table. Correct me if i'm mistaken.

Yes, the precedent is set. Let us now welcome collapse and chaos in the world.

Originally posted by Sarmat12   Perhaps someone forgot that the bad peace is always better than the good war !

a bad peace is even worse then war - Tacitus

1. Albanian side doesnt want autonomy, it wants independence.
2. Albs there had autonomy and it was simply revoked on false pretenses. What says it wont happen again?

They want to act as an independent country and no longer wish to have anything to do with Belgrade. The war cost up to 10,000 lives, the destruction of thousands of homes, and still lingers in the mind of its citizens. People simply dont want to go back to a status quo and will not accept it. Considering what Belgrade did to them, I would say that this is perfectly reasonable.

And all of you are forgetting one thing...the EVERYTHING that stands still in Kosovo was spent with the money of Jugoslavia, so they should be thankful for having homes

Edited by Illirac - 18-Feb-2008 at 18:38

Anton I included it cause that is one of the causes for US involvement. Even if the Balkans had a history of ethnic cleansing and rewriting the map this event is the latest in a long line. Nothing unusual.