Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The most terrible battle?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
Galahadlrrp View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Galahadlrrp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The most terrible battle?
    Posted: 02-May-2009 at 07:46
--You're right. I'd forgotten the Third Battle of Nanking, same as most people forget that the final Battle of Carthage was the bloodiest battle of the Punic Wars.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 16:48
Originally posted by Galahadlrrp

--A wee quibble. Borodino wasn't the bloodiest battle of the 19th Century. That "honor" belongs to The Battle of Nations/Leipzig, in 1813. Casualty estimates range from around 90000 to nearly 120000.
--Though its total numbers aren't way up there along with the likes of Verdun and Cannae, The Battle of Cold Harbor on 3 June 1864 was pretty nasty. The Union forces lost about 7500 men and the Confederates lost about 1500--in about a quarter of an hour. That doesn't seem too bad if you're accustomed to what machine guns and rapid fire field guns can do.....but they were using muzzleloaders.


battle of Leipzig was not a single battle but is a generic name for a number of individual battles fought in the vicinity of Leipzig. none of the individual battles was bloodier than Borodino.
Back to Top
Galahadlrrp View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Galahadlrrp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-May-2009 at 21:34
--Leipzig is considered a single battle, despite being composed of seperate engagements that took place other than at one specific locale. So are the likes of Leyte Gulf, Operation Market-Garden, Operation Overlord, the Battle of Kursk, the Battle of Koniggratz, etc. There are quite a few of them.

Edited by Galahadlrrp - 02-May-2009 at 21:35
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-May-2009 at 18:56
battle of Kursk is not the name of the battle, that's just an edutainement name for an Operation and counter-operation, operations are not battles and vice versa.
Back to Top
Galahadlrrp View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Galahadlrrp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 00:02
--Quible, quibble, quibble. According to the Soviet General Staff Study on the battle, it's called the Battle FOR Kursk. Normally the winner names the fight. Are you calling the Soviet General Staff an "edutainment" facility?
--Regardless, you knew what I meant.
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 00:57
Ashoka the great's war against the Kalinga. 110 000 dead, 150 000 prisoners. Such a terrible battle that Ashoka becomes buddhist despite winning.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 17:59
Originally posted by Galahadlrrp

--Quible, quibble, quibble. According to the Soviet General Staff Study on the battle, it's called the Battle FOR Kursk. Normally the winner names the fight. Are you calling the Soviet General Staff an "edutainment" facility?
--Regardless, you knew what I meant.


no, the Germans called their offensive Operation Zitadelle, while the Soviets called their counter-offensives Operation Kutuzov and Operation Polkovodets Rumyantsev. no "battle for kursk" whatsoever. and that's not quibble but fact.
Back to Top
Galahadlrrp View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 11-Nov-2008
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Galahadlrrp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-May-2009 at 20:39
--Quibble, quibble, quibble.
--The Soviet counteroffensive is not quite the same thing as the Soviet defensive, since it was composed of two operations, with one unleashed before the German ops had stopped, and the other being withheld until after they had stopped. In either case, the sum of the fighting is still known as Kursk, despite being composed of several smaller actions, each of which was composed of again smaller actions, and several different code names for various parts, given by the two sides.
--As for what the Germans named the offensive, I know they called it Zitadel. The Allies called their invasion of France Overlord--and each of its parts had a different name.....but it's still called the Normandy Invasion. Same as the "official" name for the Battle of the Bulge is the Ardennes Counteroffensive, as named by the winners; the losers called it Watch on the Rhine.
--In all cases, the great majority of people--including those writing serious history and writing at staff and war colleges--for example: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/glantz2.asp--call the battles Kursk, Normandy and the Bulge. I know; I taught at the US Army War College.
Back to Top
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221
  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2009 at 21:00
Originally posted by Galahadlrrp

--Quibble, quibble, quibble.


for someone who claims to have taught living creatures you display the maturity and discussion style of a retarded sociopath. i mean if you want to come here to discuss instead of showing off and refuting all counter-arguments and are immune to reason and correction by "lesser" beings then i guess your stay here won't be very long.


--As for what the Germans named the offensive, I know they called it Zitadel. The Allies called their invasion of France Overlord--and each of its parts had a different name.....but it's still called the Normandy Invasion. Same as the "official" name for the Battle of the Bulge is the Ardennes Counteroffensive, as named by the winners; the losers called it Watch on the Rhine.
--In all cases, the great majority of people--including those writing serious history and writing at staff and war colleges--for example: http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/glantz2/glantz2.asp--call the battles Kursk, Normandy and the Bulge. I know; I taught at the US Army War College.


first of, it's spelled Zitadelle, not Citadel with a Z. second, Germans also named this Operation as Ardennenoffensive. I know; I am German Tongue

btw i like how you say "taught" as opposed to 'teach'. does that mean they threw you out for some reason...? like answering your students questions with "quibble, quibble, quibble" all the time?
Back to Top
hiddenhistory View Drop Down
Housecarl
Housecarl


Joined: 27-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 38
  Quote hiddenhistory Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 21:40
what about the tutenburger wold 25,000 romans and there fams killed and tortured over 3 days, only a handful escaped
Back to Top
Chookie View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 14-Apr-2008
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 171
  Quote Chookie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2009 at 23:26
Modern or ancient?

Modern - Stalingrad without a doubt
Ancient - Teutoberg Forest or Watling Street





For money you did what guns could not do.........
Back to Top
Sun Tzu View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 31-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 362
  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 00:52
Verdun was pretty intense as well if this hasn't been mentioned, I think in one day the British lost 60,000 men.
Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
Back to Top
Bertucat View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 13-Jun-2008
Location: France
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5
  Quote Bertucat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2009 at 07:05
English army was not at Verdun during the battle ( 1916 /02 /21 to 12/19 ). US army was there in 1918.
Back to Top
Sun Tzu View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 31-Oct-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 362
  Quote Sun Tzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2009 at 20:16
I'm sorry it must have been the Somme sry ty for correcting.
Sun Tzu

All warfare is based on deception - Sun Tzu
Back to Top
macayana View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 09-Dec-2008
Location: Philippines
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3
  Quote macayana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 08:21
Sir Galahadlrrp,

Sorry, did not mean to say that Borodino was the bloodiest battle of the 19th century.  All I meant to say was that Antietam paled in comparison to it (or to Gettysburg, for that matter).

Nonetheless, while Leipzig may have exceeded Borodino in terms of total casualties, it should be noted that Leipzig took place over four days, whereas all the casualties at Borodino were suffered in one day.  If I'm not mistaken, Borodino is still the bloodiest one-day battle in history.

Also worth noting is the fact that the French casualty lists at Leipzig included some 35,000 prisoners (those who were stranded when the bridge was blown up prematurely), whereas the casualty lists at Borodino consisted of mostly killed and wounded.
Back to Top
JRScotia View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2009
Location: Alba
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 78
  Quote JRScotia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 18:46
I have to agree. It does seem to me that it depends on definition. Slaughter of defenseless civilian population would seem to me to rank high and execution of defeated survivors. That would make my definition different than one that had a higher death count among combatants. 


Originally posted by brunodam

Originally posted by Scaevola

Originally posted by CatalᮝHow about being a Roman, encircled at Cannae?
 
I was thinking Cannae too. What a slaughter.
 
Yes, Cannae. But the problem is what we mean for terrible? Are we talking of number of casualties or of percentage of deaths or intensity of fighting or massacre of survivors or whatelse? Cannae was a slaughter, but the same can be said of Verdun and Stalingrad and Iwo Jima and Attila's Camp Catalaunici and the battle of Manzikerth (between Turks and Bizantine) and the battle of Adrianopolis (between Gots and Romans) and so on......... I believe it is not possible to give a precise answer. For example, in the battle of Otranto the Turks killed all the city's population (even the few women and children who had survived the siege and surrendered) and suffered heavy casualties, but the siege of Leningrad was bigger in number of deaths (and was terrible even because of the many cases of cannibalism).
 
Brunodam
[/QUOTE

Saor Alba
Back to Top
Jonathan4290 View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 03-Mar-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 185
  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2009 at 22:02
Borodino is one of the bloodiest one-day battles in history but not bloodier than the first day of the Somme, 1916. If we're avoiding generic names/groupings, then the first day of the Battle of the Somme where the British suffered 60,000 casualties alone, is the bloodiest one-day engagement.
 
Temujin: I agree that the name "Battle of Kursk" was highly probably an edutainment phrase to begin with, it has since creeped its way into scholarly works.
Like great battles? How about when they're animated for easy viewing?
Visit my site, The Art of Battle: Animated Battle Maps at www.theartofbattle.com.
Back to Top
macon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Slovenia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote macon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2009 at 02:34
Borodino and Cannae.

I don't know if this one was mentioned. What do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Salsu


Edited by macon - 01-Oct-2009 at 02:36
Back to Top
macon View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 29-Sep-2006
Location: Slovenia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2
  Quote macon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2009 at 04:16
.

Edited by macon - 01-Oct-2009 at 04:46
Back to Top
warwolf1969 View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 08-May-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 56
  Quote warwolf1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 00:28
My vote is for passendale, for the simple fact that more British troops were killing on the first day than on the first day of the Somme.  There might have been less overall casualties, but there were more killed.  And the conditions were terrible to fight in.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.