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Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
    Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 12:59
And another theory that it was derived from slavonic "u ruba" Smile
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:18
Exactly, and I totally agree that this theory also could be true.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


This is in Volgograd Oblast in the North Caucasus, of course for some political and economic reasons Russians try to deny this fact:

http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?4780 : "President Putin signed a decree on 23 June renaming the North Caucasus federal district the Southern district, ITAR-TASS reported. Putin's presidential envoy to that district, General Viktor Kazantsev, told reporters on 20 June that he had requested that Putin rename the North Caucasus okrug because it includes Astrakhan and Volgograd Oblast as well as Kalmykia, which are not part of the North Caucasus. Volgograd Governor Nikolay Maksyuta had complained about his region being placed in the North Caucasus district, saying that Volgograd was previously part of the Volga interregional economic association and the Volga is the optimal trade route for his region. "

[

 
I'm sorry, but obviously you need to improve your knowledge of geography before claiming that Volgograd is a part of North Caucasus, it's the same as saying that Tehran is a part of North Caucasus.
 
There are no any reasons for Russians to say that Volgograd wasn't in Caucasus if it really was.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 15:11

And another theory that it was derived from slavonic "u ruba"

Why not "uruba" which means "red gold" in Spanish? there is also an "Aruba island" in the north of the Paraguana Peninsula, Venezuela!! or what about this one: Chinese scholar says that uruba is the swelling up. of. a wound. It. means to rise up and become active.

I'm sorry, but obviously you need to improve your knowledge of geography before claiming that Volgograd is a part of North Caucasus, it's the same as saying that Tehran is a part of North Caucasus.

http://www.answers.com/topic/caucasus?cat=travel : "Caucasus is the region between the Black and Caspian seas that includes southwest Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia.", isn't it?
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 16:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

And another theory that it was derived from slavonic "u ruba"

Why not "uruba" which means "red gold" in Spanish? there is also an "Aruba island" in the north of the Paraguana Peninsula, Venezuela!! or what about this one: Chinese scholar says that uruba is the swelling up. of. a wound. It. means to rise up and become active.  

Simply because Slavs have been there for centuries and may have found that city (in fact they are "official founders" of Uryupinsk), unlike Spanish or Chinese.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

http://www.answers.com/topic/caucasus?cat=travel : "Caucasus is the region between the Black and Caspian seas that includes southwest Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia.", isn't it?
 
Yes, but how it supports your asserion?
 
The Republic of Northern Ossetia-Alania is in Southwestern Russia and is in North Caucasus georgaphically.
 
Volgograd is also in Southwestern Russia but not in North Caucasus geographically.
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 15-Jan-2008 at 16:15
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 16:14
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The word Zilant is the English transcription of Russian Зилант, itself a rendering of Tatar yılan/елан [jɯlɑn`] (i.e., "snake", sometimes pronounced as [ʓɯlɑn`]).


Hey, on that basis I could start a whole new thread here about how the Danes are actually Russians. Or vice versa. But I won't, I'm not in that mischievous a mood.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 18:08
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Would you please tell me some differences between Persians and Scythians?



Scythians are Steppe nomads, scythians have different religion, scythians had different burial rites, scythians had different art, scythians had different costume...


Did you know the second largest province of Iran is "Land of Scythians" (Sakastan) or Iran's national hero (Rostam) is a Scythian?


Sistan is a later name for this province, there was no satrapy by this name just like there was no satrapy of Khorasan but Parthia. and whats the source Rostam was Scythian?
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 18:19
Your argument centers around the notion that Scythians were/are the ancestors of some modern North European countries. By comparing mythological traditions as you have been doing you prove nothing. My point - that floods are common to must cultures and thereby says less about cultural similarities and more about ancient settlement patterns - stands. So all Persians are Scythians? Cyrus, if you are going to include a full block quote from one of my posts you should deal with all the points I make in said quote and not just the first sentence. If you insist on only discussing the first sentence, then please answer the question posed in said sentence. (What does this have to do with the similarities between Persians and Scythians?) Clearly according to ancient sources there is a difference between Persian and Scythian. Herrodotus identifies the Scythians as being distinct from Persians.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 19:12
The assertion that Persians = Skythians is another nonsense.
 
As Temujin ponted the cultural patterns of them are considerably different. 
 
Firdousi called the Northern Iranic  Nomadic (Sktyho-Sarmatian) Universe - Turan. Turanians were the traditional enemies and opposites of Iran based on Shah-nameh.
 
The same is for the known historical facts:  Skythian queen Tomyris brutally killed king Cyrus, Darius the great had a serious war with Skythians.
 
The remnants of Skytho-sarmatian religion wich survived in Ossetian epic reveals the mythology and religion complitely different from the religion of Iran.
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 06:59

Simply because Slavs have been there for centuries and may have found that city (in fact they are "official founders" of Uryupinsk), unlike Spanish or Chinese.

Turks, Tatars, Cossacks, Russians, Slovaks, ... Which one? Of course I know it doesn't matter, you just want to be opposed to this very valid Iranian theory.

Yes, but how it supports your asserion?
 
The Republic of Northern Ossetia-Alania is in Southwestern Russia and is in North Caucasus georgaphically.
 
Volgograd is also in Southwestern Russia but not in North Caucasus geographically.

Ossetia is in the central part of Caucasus and Volgograd is in the northern part.

Hey, on that basis I could start a whole new thread here about how the Danes are actually Russians. Or vice versa. But I won't, I'm not in that mischievous a mood.

Did Danes, like Iranians, live in those regions for thousands years too?

Scythians are Steppe nomads, scythians have different religion, scythians had different burial rites, scythians had different art, scythians had different costume...

Persians and Scythians were certainly two Iranian peoples with the same religion, burial rites, art, costume, ... of course Persians migrated to modern Iran and adopted some Mesopotamian and Elamite things (Such as costume, art, architecture, ...) however they preserved their religion and many other things too.

Sistan is a later name for this province, there was no satrapy by this name just like there was no satrapy of Khorasan but Parthia.

You are talking about which period?

whats the source Rostam was Scythian?

Shahname of Ferdosi: http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm

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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 15:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ossetia is in the central part of Caucasus and Volgograd is in the northern part.

 
Looks like you have very strange ideas about the geography and particlary where are the geographical boundaries of Caucasus. I suggest you to check any book on geography of Caucasus before claiming smth like this.
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Persians and Scythians were certainly two Iranian peoples with the same religion, burial rites, art, costume, ... of course Persians migrated to modern Iran and adopted some Mesopotamian and Elamite things (Such as costume, art, architecture, ...) however they preserved their religion and many other things too.
 
 Yes Skythians and Persians were close linguistically and had common roots but their culture and religion were very different.
 
There are no sources which say that Skythians were Zoroastrians. Common burial practice for Skythians was to bury their deads and build kurgans. Which was complitely unacceptable for Zoroastrians
 
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

whats the source Rostam was Scythian?

Shahname of Ferdosi: http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm

 
It's only certain that Afrosiab was a Skythian
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 18:03

Looks like you have very strange ideas about the geography and particlary where are the geographical boundaries of Caucasus. I suggest you to check any book on geography of Caucasus before claiming smth like this.

Caucasus is not a country with specified boundaries, as I said the region between the Black and Caspian seas is called "Caucasus" and Volgograd is in this region.

Yes Skythians and Persians were close linguistically and had common roots but their culture and religion were very different.
 
There are no sources which say that Skythians were Zoroastrians. Common burial practice for Skythians was to bury their deads and build kurgans. Which was complitely unacceptable for Zoroastrians

This known Zoroastrianism mostly belongs to the Sassanid period, ancient Persians also buried their deads, there are several tombs from this period in Iran.

It's only certain that Afrosiab was a Skythian

Afrasiab was a Turanian not Scythian, as you read here :http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm

"Almost two-thirds of the Shahnameh is devoted to the age of heroes, extending from Manuchehrs reign until the conquest of Alexander.  The main feature of this period is the major role played by the Sagzi (Saka/Scythian) or Sistani heroes who appear as the backbone of the Iranian empire. Garshasp is briefly mentioned as is his son Nariman, whose own son Sam acted as the leading paladin of Manuchehr while reigning in Sistan in his own right.  His successors were his son Zal and his son Rostam, the bravest of the brave, and then Faramarz."
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 19:11
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ossetia is in the central part of Caucasus and Volgograd is in the northern part.


the Caucasus is a mountain range, Volgograd lies in the flat Steppe. to call Volgograd as northern caucasus is like calling the Mongolian steppe as northern himalayas!

Persians and Scythians were certainly two Iranian peoples with the same religion, burial rites, art, costume, ... of course Persians migrated to modern Iran and adopted some Mesopotamian and Elamite things (Such as costume, art, architecture, ...) however they preserved their religion and many other things too.

but Zoroastrianism was only created in Iran, Scythians never adopted it.

You are talking about which period?

don't know, which period are you talking about? you amde it sound like Sakas are natives to this region but it is clear from historical sources that teh Sakas only moved into this region much later.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 19:54
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Afrasiab was a Turanian not Scythian, as you read here :http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm

 
So, in your opinion, Turanians were not Iranics and not the speakers of the language of Iranian subgroup, right?
 
 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 03:10
Going back to North Caucasus it's established that the northern geographical boundary of the region is so called: Kuma-Manych Depression.
 
 
Geographically, the term North Caucasus comprises the northern slope and western extremity of the Caucasus Major mountain range, as well as a part of its southern slope to the West (until the Psou River). The Forecaucasus steppe area is often also encompassed under the notion of "North Caucasus", thus the northern boundary of the geographical region is generally considered to be the Kuma-Manych Depression. It is bounded by the Sea of Azov and Kerch Strait on the west, and the Caspian Sea on the east.
 
I hope you finally can look on the map and see where it really is and stop you strange claims, Cyrus.
 
Unfortunately, I didn't find the English map of Kuma-Manych Depression. But you can clearly see it on this Russian map, It's called Кумо-Манычская впадина  in Russian. You can clearly see that it's considerably south from Volgograd, which even didn't fit in the map:
 
 
But even if you say that Caucausus is everything that is between "Black and Caspian Sea," I'm going to show you that Volgograd is again considerably north from this line. Volgorgad is simply not "between Caspian and Black Sea."
 
Look at this map:
 
 
So, you're wrong, based both on the science of geography and your own claims.
 
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 11:04

the Caucasus is a mountain range, Volgograd lies in the flat Steppe. to call Volgograd as northern caucasus is like calling the Mongolian steppe as northern himalayas!

We are talking about "Caucasus Region" not "Caucasus Mountains".

but Zoroastrianism was only created in Iran, Scythians never adopted it.

Zoroastrianism was just one of Iranian religions, it was even not a popular religion in Achaemenid and Parthian periods.

don't know, which period are you talking about? you amde it sound like Sakas are natives to this region but it is clear from historical sources that teh Sakas only moved into this region much later.

It is not clear when Sakas migrated to this region, it can be as early as Persian migration, Sakastan/Sagastan could be the same Sakarata (Sagartia) satrap of Achaemenid empire which has been mentioned by Darius the Great and Xerxes.

So, in your opinion, Turanians were not Iranics and not the speakers of the language of Iranian subgroup, right?

In Shahnameh it seems to be a Turkic or Chinese people but in Avesta they are certainly an Iranian people.

It is bounded by the Sea of Azov and Kerch Strait on the west, and the Caspian Sea on the east.
 
I hope you finally can look on the map and see where it really is and stop you strange claims, Cyrus.

This is the region betweem the Sea of Azov and Caspian sea:

But even if you say that Caucausus is everything that is between "Black and Caspian Sea," I'm going to show you that Volgograd is again considerably north from this line. Volgorgad is simply not "between Caspian and Black Sea."

 
Look at this map:
 
 
So, you're wrong, based both on the science of geography and your own claims.
Don't think that name of Volgagrad relates to the Volga river which flows to the Caspian Sea? I mean Volgagrad oblast (province) not just the city.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 15:22

 

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


In Shahnameh it seems to be a Turkic or Chinese people but in Avesta they are certainly an Iranian people.

 
Unfortunately, I have to say, that you are not very familiar with Shah nameh. Never Turanians are called Chinese there. Yes, there are Chinese in Shah nameh but they appear there under there own name and never they are confused with Turanians.
 
And secondly Turanians also are of Iranian origin based on Shah nameh. Wiki gets it right:
 
 
Tūrān (Persian: توران) is the ancient Iranian name[1] for Central Asia, literally meaning "the land of the Tur". As described below, the original Turanians are the Tuirya Iranian people[2][3][4] of the Avesta age. According to Shahnameh's account, at least 1500 years later after the Avesta, the nomadic tribes who inhabited these lands, were ruled by Tūr who was the emperor Fereydun's elder son.
 
Thus Turan is a name for nomadic Iranics of Central Asia. Under what name they are known in history? We know  several Skythians-Saka-Sarmatians.  Thus, Afrosiab was also Iranic of course and he could be only Skythian
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is the region betweem the Sea of Azov and Caspian sea:

But even if you say that Caucausus is everything that is between "Black and Caspian Sea," I'm going to show you that Volgograd is again considerably north from this line. Volgorgad is simply not "between Caspian and Black Sea."

 
Look at this map:
 
 
So, you're wrong, based both on the science of geography and your own claims.
Don't think that name of Volgagrad relates to the Volga river which flows to the Caspian Sea? I mean Volgagrad oblast (province) not just the city.
 
I'm impressed with your skillful edition of my previous post. First of all we were talking bout the norhtern boundary of Caucaus region not eastern or western boundary. You even didn't pay attention to the part where I gave you the information about the geographically commonly accepted Northern boundary of North Caucasus region.
 
But even, based on your reasoning you are wrong again.
 
For your information the town of Uryupinks is located to the North from Volgograd city.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 17-Jan-2008 at 15:23
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There are several places in the south west of Russia (northeast of the Black Sea) with the names similar to Urup Saka (Scythian Urupians).

Urupskaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241853/urupskaya.html
Urupsaja Pervaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241852/urupsaja_pervaya.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p157134/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241856/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241855/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy Aul: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241857/urupskiy_aul.html
Urupskiy Khrebet: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p9193099/urupskiy_khrebet.html
Urupskiy Rayon: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241858/urupskiy_rayon.html

I found this interesting article from www.FindArticles.com about one of them:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200207/ai_n9119082 (by Ivan Kurilla) -> Uryupinsk is the "capital city of Russia's provinces." Its name is so widely used in anecdotes about Russian "country bumpkins" that many Russians believe that it is the creation of some storyteller. Uryupinsk, however, really exists. About forty thousand inhabitants enjoy a healthy and picturesque environment on the river Khoper, three hundred kilometers (about two hundred miles) from Volgograd. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uryupinsk



-skij, -ski for masculine : -ska, skaja for feminine : -sko, -ske, -skje, -skuo for neutral and other similar suffixes

These are just common adjective suffixes in all Slavic languages. They mean ''Of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or suitable for'', somewhat similar to Germanic -ish, -isch and other.

EXAMPLE: Don (river), Donský (pertaining to Don)
Bratislava (town) - bratislavský.....Bratislavský Hrad (castle of Bratislava)
and so on...many many many adjectives end with such suffixes

Urupkij and other - they might have something with 'Urup', but nothing with 'Saka'....that's not that word bastardised, that's just a suffix in all cases.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 18-May-2008 at 11:42
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''Pa'' means foot?? OK, but not in Old Norse, neither in any Germanic language. (Old Norse fótr)

WHY? Because of so-called Grimm's Law, which says about p->f shift entering Proto-Germanic language (I'm not saying 'p' vanished in Ger-lang., but the word for 'foot' WAS affected by this shift) This is called the Great Germanic Consonant Shift, I think.

Eagle in Old Norse is 'ori'/'ari'.

However, I was really surprised that your translation of eagle in Slovak was correct. This is the first time probably.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 18-May-2008 at 13:13
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


They still exist, the Urus (Russians)


Comes from ruotsi, the name given to Swedes by Finns, not from urus.
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