Northeast European Tribe, Scythian

Originally posted by Sarmat12 [   The term Nonsense is not so rude as you think it's just something that makes no sense.  And now explain to me how the city Uriupinsk that was founded at the 14th century utmost (most of the sources actually give 16 century) was founded by Iranic tribes?   If you say that it was or even could, I  have to appologize, but it will mean that your understanding of the Russian history is very extravagant and makes no sense at all from the point of view of established and known facts and all the historical sources on the Russian history of this periods we have.   There simply no any Iranic tribes in the region in 14 century AD.   With the same kind confidence you can say that Uriupinks was found by Aliens and means "The Great Silver UFO" in Alien language.

Originally posted by Sarmat12   And I didn't say that it was founded by Turks (i.e. Tatar Cossacks) for sure, I said it was most likely while founding by Iranics is complitely unlikely.

I told you already why. As a possible explanation. 'cause there was for instance small village with the same root.

No it is not ridiculous. It is just another idea that whether you support it or not.

That is why returning to the beginning of our discussion I think ridiculous is a stuf in heads of some rude mods .

So, what?

Sarmat12, what do you know about Tatars? Is it strange if they use a Persian word for a place name?

Lets talk about their mythology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilant

Zilant is a legendary creature, something between a dragon and a wyvern. Since 1730, it has been the official symbol of Kazan. This winged snake is a part of Tatar and Russian folklore and is mentioned in legends about the foundation of Kazan.

The word Zilant is the English transcription of Russian Зилант, itself a rendering of Tatar yılan/елан [jɯlɑn`] (i.e., "snake", sometimes pronounced as [ʓɯlɑn`]).

The Tatars themselves, on the other hand, frequently refer to this creature with the Persian word Ajdaha (Dragon) [2] or Ajdaha-yılan (Dragon-snake). For Tatars, it was a repulsive creature, corresponding to European dragons and to Persian dragon. According to Idel-Ural beliefs, any snake that survives for 100 years turns into Ajdaha dragon.[3]

Zilant/Ajdaha should be distinguished from Aq Yılan (White Snake), which is the king of snakes. Aq Yılan [4] or Şahmara [5] advised and helped epic heroes, batırlar [6], often by giving them gifts. As regards his beneficial influence on humans, the White Snake is similar to the Chinese dragon. The word Şahmara [7] is derived from the Persian roots shah (king) and mar (snake).[8]
 

Coat of arms of Kazan

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 13-Jan-2008 at 21:50

Originally posted by Sarmat12 [  That's why AFAIK some rude mods think that some wise members prefer to demonstrate their advanced arguing skills instead of providing some meaningful facts to support the bizzare points which they like so much.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri Sarmat12, what do you know about Tatars? Is it strange if they use a Persian word for a place name? Lets talk about their mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilant Zilant is a legendary creature, something between a dragon and a wyvern. Since 1730, it has been the official symbol of Kazan. This winged snake is a part of Tatar and Russian folklore and is mentioned in legends about the foundation of Kazan. The word Zilant is the English transcription of Russian Зилант, itself a rendering of Tatar yılan/елан [jɯlɑn`] (i.e., "snake", sometimes pronounced as [ʓɯlɑn`]). The Tatars themselves, on the other hand, frequently refer to this creature with the Persian word Ajdaha (Dragon) [2] or Ajdaha-yılan (Dragon-snake). For Tatars, it was a repulsive creature, corresponding to European dragons and to Persian dragon. According to Idel-Ural beliefs, any snake that survives for 100 years turns into Ajdaha dragon.[3] Zilant/Ajdaha should be distinguished from Aq Yılan (White Snake), which is the king of snakes. Aq Yılan [4] or Şahmara [5] advised and helped epic heroes, batırlar [6], often by giving them gifts. As regards his beneficial influence on humans, the White Snake is similar to the Chinese dragon. The word Şahmara [7] is derived from the Persian roots shah (king) and mar (snake).[8]�Coat of arms of Kazan

What does this have to do with the similarities between Persians and Scythians? There are many cultures that have similar mythologies but that doesn't mean that they are of the same derivation. Take for example the fact that flood stories happen to be a common element in the mythologies of most cultures. Does this mean that they all have a common ancestry that had flooding? I would say, no. These stories are more indicative of common settlement patterns - most prehistoric and ancient societies settled on the banks of rivers, which at time tend to over flow causing great floods. Again I think you are playing fast and loose with your linguistic examples. I would have to agree with Sarmat12 this topic is ridiculous.

What does this have to do with the similarities between Persians and Scythians? There are many cultures that have similar mythologies but that doesn't mean that they are of the same derivation. Take for example the fact that flood stories happen to be a common element in the mythologies of most cultures. Does this mean that they all have a common ancestry that had flooding? I would say, no. These stories are more indicative of common settlement patterns - most prehistoric and ancient societies settled on the banks of rivers, which at time tend to over flow causing great floods. Again I think you are playing fast and loose with your linguistic examples. I would have to agree with Sarmat12 this topic is ridiculous.

Would you please tell me some differences between Persians and Scythians? Did you know the second largest province of Iran is "Land of Scythians" (Sakastan) or Iran's national hero (Rostam) is a Scythian?

Please don't attribute to me the words I didn't say. I was talking particularly about the town of Uryupinsk, which is hundred miles away from North Caucasus.

This is in Volgograd Oblast in the North Caucasus, of course for some political and economic reasons Russians try to deny this fact:

http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?4780 : "President Putin signed a decree on 23 June renaming the North Caucasus federal district the Southern district, ITAR-TASS reported. Putin's presidential envoy to that district, General Viktor Kazantsev, told reporters on 20 June that he had requested that Putin rename the North Caucasus okrug because it includes Astrakhan and Volgograd Oblast as well as Kalmykia, which are not part of the North Caucasus. Volgograd Governor Nikolay Maksyuta had complained about his region being placed in the North Caucasus district, saying that Volgograd was previously part of the Volga interregional economic association and the Volga is the optimal trade route for his region. "

North Caucasus kept Iranic influence for much longer period than the region of Uryupinks andl Iranic Ossetian-Alans, Tats and Talyshs are living there.

It is great that you know it.

Obviously you didn't read all the books. And for sure the most information about Uryupinks is in Russian language. Can you read in Russian?   http://www.urup.ru/inform/history/

Thanks for the link, I translated this page to English by "Babel Fish Translation" and read it.

Here is the webpage which is literally called "Uryupinsk online" and cites the book about the khan you're looking for.   In fact, there was even a Russian archaic word "Uryupa" which means a very honorable word... "a slob."   And there is even a hypo about the origin of the name from this word. It's not for nothing this name "Uryupinks" sounds so funny for Russians.

Isn't it better that we ignore these childish stories and talk about the real history?

The historical fact is that this region for several hundreds years was known as "Urupa" by Scythians and Sarmatians who lived there and is still known with this similar name, but that childish story is that "Urup" is from name of a Tartar khan, who got bogged down in a swamp near this location (Urupinsk), during a fight with Yermak (Cossack leader) and got captured. However historical sources say Yermek fought against Tatars in Siberia but Dolgachev, author of this comic book, has also discovered that "Uvyaz" (bog, slob) and "Urup" are very similar words, anyway both of them start with "U", so it is also possible that after this very important event (bogging down of that Tatar prince), Cossacks began to call this city "Bog"!!!

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Jan-2008 at 12:37