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Adalwolf 
Chieftain 
Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1230 |
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 Topic: AztlanPosted: 08-Dec-2007 at 18:47 |
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Have any of you heard of this movement?
Basically this movement calls for the reconquest of the American Southwest by Latinos, claiming it as their ancestral homelands. It seems to be a very racist and violent organization that calls for the expulsion of all non-Hispanics in the Southwest. This movement really gets me angry, as it means that they will break up the US. Some videos on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIW-BZ8oLrk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auo4shn_cJQ&feature=related There are a lot more vids on youtube. I've got to say that these people piss me off! Many of them came to the US illegally, suck up our taxpayer money, and now want to carve their own country out of the US! Forget about Al Qaida, focus on Aztlan movements. |
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
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Paul
General 
AE Immoderator Joined: 21-Aug-2004 Location: Hyperborea Online Status: Offline Posts: 952 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:48 |
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LOL these guys are funny.
A load of Spanish immigrants telling a load of German+ immigrants to go back to Europe. Aah the finer points of the Fascist mentality...Precious. Edited by Paul - 08-Dec-2007 at 19:51 |
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Light blue touch paper and stand well back
http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:50 |
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US did the exact same thing 150 years ago. People always look out for their own interests.
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:54 |
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Do you mean Aztlan?
First, that is not a movement of "Latinos" but of some Chicanos and Mexican Americans. They are not immigrants! Try to find out about the difference between Chicano and Mexican.
The origin of those ideas have an historical root. A long time ago, a country called United States invaded another country called Mexico and kept half Mexican territories in its hands. Some extremist groups, particularly Chicanos, call for a final return of Aztlan to its legitimate owners.
To tell the true, most Latinos in the U.S. don't care about that, including Mexicans. Chicanos are Americans and not Latinos and not Mexicans, as you may know. You shouldn't confusse the ideology of La Raza, or the Hispanic American identity with this political movement of some American minorities.
Here is the history of the Mecha: "Chicano students Movement of Aztlan"
 MEChA (Spanish: Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztln, "Chicano Student Movement of Aztln) is an organization that seeks to promote Chicano unity and empowerment through education and political action. The acronym of the organization's name is the Spanish word mecha, which means "fuse." The motto of MEChA is La Unin Hace La Fuerza ("Unity Creates Strength").
MEChA began during the 1960's, empowered through the political movements of the time, especially through the civil rights and black power movements. The group coalesced out of several organizations which had formed during that turbulent decade and all came together at the conference in Denver. The Denver, Colorado-based Crusade for Justice, a civil rights and educational organization founded in the mid-60s, concerned itself with the problems of the city's Chicano youth. One of the founding documents, El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan was drafted during this conference. This document reflects the sentiment of the Latino/Chicano youth during an era of a turbulent social climate (especially after all of the violence the Latino youth faced by the US military and police during the zoot suit roits). The Mexican American Youth Organization was founded in San Antonio, Texas, in 1967, and employed the tactics of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and later spurred the creation of the controversial La Raza Unida Party. The Brown Berets were a youth organization that militated against police brutality in East Los Angeles. In 1968, they helped the United Mexican American Students (UMAS), Sal Castro, and other youth who met at the Piranya Cafe organize the East L.A. walkouts, called the Blowouts, a series of protests against unfair conditions in Los Angeles schools. Following the Blowouts, a group of students, school administrators, and teachers formed the Chicano Coordinating Committee on Higher Education (CCCHE), a network to pressure the adoption and expansion of equal opportunity programs in California's colleges. Rene Nuez, an activist from San Diego, conceived a conference to unify the student groups under the auspices of the CCCHE. In April 1969, Chicano college students held a nationwide conference at the University of California, Santa Barbara. Many of the attendees were present at the First National Chicano Youth Liberation Conference hosted by Rodolfo "Corky" Gonzales's Crusade for Justice a month prior, and the Santa Barbara conference represented the extension of the Chicano Youth Movement into the realm of higher education. The name "Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztln" was already in use by a few groups, and the name was adopted by the conference attendees because of the importance of each of the words and as a means of transcending the regional nature of the multiple campus-based groups. Conference attendees also set the national agenda and drafted the Plan de Santa Barbara, a pedagogic manifesto. MEChA chapters first took root on California college campuses and then expanded to high schools and schools in other states. It soon became one of the primary Mexican-American organizations, hosting functions, developing community leaders, and politically pressuring educational institutions. MEChA was fundamental in the adoption of Chicano Studies programs and departments in academia. MEChA is also spelled as MEXA in certain areas as a claim to deeper indigenous roots having to do with the Nahuatl pronunciation of "x" as "ch". This then changes the word "Chicano" to "Xicano". MEChA Constitution
MEChA's constitution was ratified in 1995[1] and contains four objectives:
During the 1999 National Conference at Phoenix College, MEChA adopted a document entitled The Philosophy of MEChA which affirmed the more moderate view that "all people are potential Chicanas and Chicanos", and that "Chicano identity is not a nationality but a philosophy".[2] In addition, The Philosophy of MEChA addressed the problem of outside organizations co-opting the legitimacy of MEChA to advance their own agendas, doing so by establishing guidelines to make local MEChA chapters more accountable to the national organization. Edited by pinguin - 08-Dec-2007 at 19:57 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:18 |
. I saw both videos. I loved these phrases:"We are indigenous, the only owners of this continent"
"Go back to Europe, this is not your land" "Go back to England"
However, you shouldn't forget the facts. Mexicans are also in the U.S. army and they have died for your country in Irak
Do you know that an the wife of a Latino immigrant that died in Irak and that received condecorations was deported by the U.S. government?
We know quite a lot about the racist attitude the U.S. government and certain certain white americans have had against Mexicans, and most Latinos don't agree with that at all.
You, Americans, should learn to live with Mexicans and Latinos in general. Otherwise, listen, you better move to Europe.
Mexicans don't have gringo, they are just reaction to the hate they receive daily in the paradyse.
Read this and come back:
"Immigrant soldiers killed during duty recieve little respect in that their family members can be deported"
Some Mexicans in Iraq:
IRAQ WAR
Known GI's of Mexican Descent Killed, MIAs and POWs
KILLED Cpl. Jose A. Garibay, age 21, 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment Orange, California Killed in action near Nasiriya on March 23, 2003 Cpl. Garibay was born in Jalisco, Mexico. Cpl. Jorge A. Gonzales, age 20, 1st Battalion, 2nd Marine Regiment Los Angeles, California Killed in action near Nasiriya on March 23, 2003 Cpl. Jesus Alberto Suarez de Solar, age 20, 1st Expeditionary Force, Camp Pendleton, was killed in heavy fighting near Nasiriyah. Cpl. Suarez was born in Tijuana, Mexico. Private First Class Lori Ann Piestewa, 23 year old Hopi/Mexican of Tuba City, AZ was officially declared dead on April 5th, 2003. She was 1 of 9 American bodies found at the Nasiriyah hospital after US soldiers rescued Pfc Jessica Lynch. Pfc Piestewa became the 1st female soldier to be killed in the Iraq War. She was a single mom of 2 children, a 4 yr old son and 3 yr old daughter. Pfc. Francisco A. Martinez Flores, age 20, of Los Angeles; Francisco Martinez Flores was assigned to the 1st Marine Division, Marine Corps Air-Ground Combat Center, based at Twenty-Nine Palms, Calif. He was killed near Nasiriyah on March 25, when the tank he was in traveled over a collapsing bridge and tumbled into the Euphrates River. Martinez's mother, Martha, confirmed the news to reporters Monday, saying she hopes others might be spared her pain. "I just want them to stop it, for all the suffering mothers," she said in Spanish. "All of these young people have no need to die in this unending battle." Pfc. Flores was an immigrant from Mexico. Marine Capt. Aaron J. Contreras, age 31. Capt. Contreras was assigned to the Marine Light Attack Helicopter Squadron 169, Marine Aircraft Group 39, which is headquartered in the Marine Corps Air Station at Camp Pendleton, California. Aaron was very religious, and believed in his church," said the father, Edward Contreras. Capt. Contreras' father, said Aaron - one of five brothers - was born in San Jose, California. Early reports are saying that Capt. Contrera's Blackhawk helicopter may have been shot down by "friendly fire". Pfc. Ruben Estrella-Soto, age 18, 507th Maintenance Company, of El Paso, Texas. Pfc. Ruben Estrella-Soto was first listed as missing but his body was identified as one of eleven soldiers found dead during a POW rescue operation. "He had a lot of desire to do something with his life, and he wanted to go into the military so he could get an education," said Ruben Soto Sr. "He wanted to study engineering." He played football at Mountain View High School. Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, age 35, 507th Maintenance, Company Pecos, Texas. Johnny Villareal Mata was first listed as missing but his body was identified as one of eleven soldiers found dead during a POW rescue operation. Johnny Villareal Mata played for the Pecos High School Eagles football team and graduated in 1986. Cpl. Erik H. Silva, age 22, of Chula Vista, California was killed on April 3rd. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division, which is based at Camp Pendleton, California. Pfc. Juan G. Garza Jr., 20 years old, from San Benito,Texas, 1st Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, fc Garza was killed April 8 in an attack at the Baghdad Airport, "He was shot in the chest," his mother, Mary Ann Garza said "He died instantly." Cpl. Jesus Antonio Medellin, 21 years old, from Fort Worth Texas, 3rd Assault Amphibian Battalion, 1st Marine Division. Cpl Medellin was killed April 7 when enemy fire struck the amphibious assault vehicle he was driving. Sgt. Duane R. Rios, 25 years old , Sgt Rios was assigned to the 1st Combat Engineer Battalion, 1st Marine Division, based at Camp Pendleton. He was killed April 4 during a firefight in central Iraq. Sgt. Fernando Padilla-Ramirez, 26, of Yuma, Arizona, was assigned to Marine Wing Support Squadron-371, Marine Wing Support Group-37, Marine Corps Air Station, Yuma, Arizona. He was last seen conducting convoy operations in the vicinity of Al Nasiriyah on 28 March. His mother, Lorenza Padilla, told the Associated Press that the family is "thinking the worst." Padilla-Ramirez, who was born in Mexico just south of San Luis, is married and has a 5-year-old son in addition to the newborn he welcomed just before heading overseas. "We haven't heard anything," sister-in-law Christina Padilla said Sunday. "We're just waiting for news." He has been in the Marine Corps more than five years, Christina said. Sgt. Padilla-Ramirez has now been reported as killed on March 28, 2003. His remains were identified on April 10. Padilla-Ramirez was born in San Luis Rio Colorado, Mexico, across the border from San Luis but was naturalized two years ago. Cpl. Jesus A. Gonzalez, 22, of Indio, Calif., was killed on April 12 while manning a checkpoint in Baghdad. He was assigned to 1st Tank Battalion, 1st Marine Division, Twentynine Palms, Calif. 1st Lt. Osbaldo Orozco, 26, was killed when his Bradley fighting vehicle rolled over as his Army unit rushed to help others under attack near Tikrit. He attended California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo, on a full football scholarship. A member of Cal Poly's ROTC program, Orozco thought the Army would be good training for someday joining the Central Intelligence Agency or the FBI. He earned his commission on the same day he got his diploma in 2001. Seven days later, he moved across the country to Fort Hood, Texas, where Orozco joined the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment and began training as a Bradley commander. Sgt. Edward John Anguiano, age 24, US Army 3rd Infantry Combat Support Battalion based in Fort Stewart, Georgia. Sgt. Anguiano is from Los Fresnos, Texas, in "El Valle de Tejas". Anguiano was formerly listed as "Missing in Action" but his remains were identified through DNA testing and is now officially listed as a casualty. MISSING IN ACTION - Presumed Dead REMAINS HAVE BEEN OFFICIALLY IDENTIFIED-now listed as a casualty(Sgt. Edward John Anguiano, age 24, US Army 3rd Infantry Combat Support Battalion based in Fort Stewart, Georgia. Sgt. Anguiano is from Los Fresnos, Texas, in "El Valle de Tejas". He is missing in action. The whereabouts of the 24-year-old serviceman have not been known since his convoy was ambushed March 23. "It is so difficult," Anguianos mother said, surrounded by family members. "It is devastating, but I dont want to lose hope.") POW's Spc. Edgar Hernandez was RELEASED on Sunday April 13, 2003. Spc. Edgar Hernandez, age 21, from Mission, Texas, is listed as captured. The supply specialist's mother, 53-year-old Maria De La Luz Hernandez, held her son's picture in front of her as she talked to television reporters in Mission. "It is very hard," she said in Spanish. "He is strong, because he has a lot of faith." Edited by pinguin - 08-Dec-2007 at 20:19 |
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Crystall
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Joined: 28-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 114 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 22:48 |
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If we look at when Mexico was recognized (1821) to when the land was lost (1848), we see Mexico only had this land for 27 years. You cannot really count time before, because Spain ruled over it.
So we see Aztlan is a fantasy to believe they had ruled this land for hundreds of years in my opinion..
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:17 |
Well, there is a fact that stand and that those lands belonged legally to Mexico at the times the American pioneers started to settled in there. That fact is undeniable, but it is not different of many similar events in the Americas and elsewhere. Since the beginning of the 19th centuries several wars were fought across the hemisphere, and the frontiers moved. I think is unrealistic to prettend now to move the frontiers back again.
Now, Mexico, a westernized state, inherit those lands that now belong to the U.S. from the Spanish crown, an European superpower of its time, and not from the Amerindians of the South West. That's a hard fact that contradicts the claims of Aztlan. There was never an Aztlan state to begin with. Even more, Aztec civilization only controlled the central valley of Mexico.
So, I agree with you in that there is a lot of fantasy in the Aztlan movement.
But now, what are the Chicanos and Mexican immigrants in general, really asking for? I bet the answer to that is more simpler: they are looking for equality and being treated like the human beings they are.
The U.S. has lived a long time giving its back to Mexico. Forgetting its neighbour of the south except when produces some problems. I believe it is time to improve the relations with that country and that will help not only Mexico but the U.S. as well.
Come on. Mexico and the U.S. will be neighbours for the foreseable future. The population of the U.S. itself is growing more Mexican day by day. It is common sense to be in good terms between both countries.
The construction of walls and massive deportations don't contribute much to the piece in the U.S., and it is not practical either. Hispanics will flex theirs political muscle in the next election and I could bet the candidates that are though against Mexican immigrants will be surprised.
In fact, what the Aztlan people is against is people like the minutemen. This is theirs enemy and not the American people.
Minutemen pictures:
      See the adds:
 Edited by pinguin - 08-Dec-2007 at 23:27 |
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longshanks31
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Joined: 03-Jul-2007 Location: Great Britain Online Status: Offline Posts: 572 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:23 |
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There is actually no such thing as race, bearing that in mind, this is quite funny.
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long live the king of bhutan
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Adalwolf
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Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1230 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:29 |
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There is nothing wrong with Hispanics who immigrate to the US, legally. Many of them are hard working people.
The problem is groups who are illegal, or groups who call for the entire Southwest to be returned to Mexico or being set up as a new nation. The flying of the Mexican flag above the US flag, the monument in LA saying the land was Mexican and will be again, and numerous other incidents are a slap in the face to US, and anger US citizens. I don't know how popular this movement is. If it is more than a few thousand it is worrying. |
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
Edward Abbey |
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Adalwolf
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Joined: 08-Sep-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1230 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:35 |
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@ Pinguin:
I've heard about the neo-nazis in the Minuteman. Don't let it fool you though. They are small minority. Most Minuteman simply want a secure border so drugs, criminals (like MS 13), and illegal immigrants can't stay out. No one but a few extremists are against legal immigration. |
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Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
Edward Abbey |
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longshanks31
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:35 |
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adalwolf, storm in a teacup brother, its a case of haves v have nots, and the have nots are rarely on the winning team.
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long live the king of bhutan
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:45 |
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Well, as far as I know Hispanics don't pay much attention to Aztlan at all. It is a minoritary group and a fantasy above all. Besides, Mexicans are around 50% of Hispanics immigrants and the rest have nothing to do with land reivindications. Even more, the Mexican government is not interested in a long term adventure to create problems in the U.S.. What they want to do is to have more commerce and better relations. After all the NAFTA, with all its problems, have helped them to grow. But there is other problem though, that affects many Hispanics in the U.S. and that is the status of the illegal immigrants. I don't know if you knew but Hispanics represents already close to the 15% of the population of the U.S. and they are expected to growth to 25% in the following decades. Today, there are more Hispanics that Black Americans in the U.S., in fact. If you don't notice them perhaps is because many Hispanics don't look Hispanic.... That's also a fact. Now, that people want a better treatment of illegals. Many of them have lived for decades in the U.S. and have never the chance to work in equal conditions than Americans, and live in fear of deportation. If you see the cases I have seen in CNN Spanish and other Hispanic TV programs in the U.S., of people that has been deported in the most injust conditions, you will see why some Hispanics protest and are upset. The most strange is the following case. An illegal immigrant was crossing to the U.S. and while in route saw a car accident an a small American child dying. He forgot about entering the U.S. and look for help of Americans. The police came and the child was saved. The fellow was deported Do you see what I mean?
The news in here:
AP | November 24, 2007 11:23 AM A 9-year-old boy looking for help after his mother crashed their van in the southern Arizona desert was rescued by a man entering the U.S. illegally, who stayed with him until help arrived the next day, an official said. The 45-year-old woman, who eventually died while awaiting help, had been driving on a U.S. Forest Service road in a remote area just north of the Mexican border when she lost control of her van on a curve on Thanksgiving, Santa Cruz County Sheriff Tony Estrada said. The van vaulted into a canyon and landed 300 feet from the road, he said. The woman, from Rimrock, north of Phoenix, survived the impact but was pinned inside, Estrada said.
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 23:56 |
Well, there you have the answer. The Aztlan movement is also a VERY small minority between the Hispanics in the U.S.
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longshanks31
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:02 |
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the earth has no immigrants only natives (unless roswell is real)
when we are extinct the land will still be there not caring who owned it.
The ants think they are the masters.
These are very base concerns and very petty.
Food, clean water, shelter and fulfilment are the tools of live, this should be the sole focus,
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long live the king of bhutan
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:11 |
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Pretty idealistic, longshanks. Ask the British government, then, to allow Argentinean immigration to the Falklands In any case, I agree immigration can be a problem. I wish my own government get a little bit thougher on immigration comming from our "brother" countries around us.
Yes, it is a hard topic and we should not avoid to discuss it.
Edited by pinguin - 09-Dec-2007 at 00:12 |
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longshanks31
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 00:22 |
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in my heart of hearts pinguin, id even let the french own the falklands, it truely does not matter who owns them or who lives there as long as they are looked after, healthy and happy.
If there is anything more important than that i fail to see it.
Flags and land claims are a tiresome menace, the happyness of peoples lives is the greater stake than the fates of nations, long live the king of bhutan.
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 01:31 |
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I don't know how much support Aztln has under Mexican Americans, but in Mexico it is considered a ridiculous organization that is not taken seriously. They are nuts (but then of course discrimination breeds radicalism), but I don't think they will ever become powerful enough to achieve their goals.
It has been discussed before, but tough border control simply doesn't work against immigration. Immigrants will come and enter anyway, and when they do so illegally they have very little chance of making money, upward mobility, etc. When it is easier to come legally more there will be some more immigration, but a large part of the immigrants will return after a few years after they made enough money to build a future in their mother country. When you make it difficult to enter the country they will come illegaly, not earn enough money, and therefore they won't return. Result: the number of immigrants is larger, and so is the percentage of poor, illegal and ghettoized immigrants. So "I have nothing against immigration as long as it's legal" is missing the point. The best you can do is channel immigration (with temporary work permits or so), trying to halt it works counterproductive. |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:08 |
Amen, fellow. Let's hope that dream one day comes true.
Remember Lennon:
"I know I am a dreamer, but I am not the only one"
John Lennon
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Crystall
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:11 |
  Mexicans marching for.... Mexico. We all remember those protests in LA 2 years ago.
Trying to make the minutemen seem all racist by posting those pictures i see, those nazi flags are not what they usually march with.
The people believe the american people are being sold out to big corporations so they can continue to have cheap labor, and I do believe they have a point.
But people always want this to turn into a race issue, and if you are against illegal immigration, than you must be racist (since this country allows people to claim others are racist for almost anything now a days)
Edited by Crystall - 09-Dec-2007 at 02:21 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:16 |
Co-sign!
That's precisely how I see things.
The Mexican immigration is fueled by relative lack of opportunities back home. Well, Mexico is not THAT poor, and if it were located in a place like South East Asia or Africa, perhaps could be considered a rich country. But that's not the case living right besides with one of the most developed countries in the world. The difference between the low class, and poor, Mexican and the Middle Class American is astronomical. That's what drives immigration to the United States.
I bet a more realistic approach would be investing in Mexico so that country can absorve the labour of the poor, and that way stop a little bit immigration.
In the long term, Mexico will have to stop emigration as a matter of survival. It could be sound ridiculous but projections exist that predict that if Mexico allows this same rate of immigrantion much longer, it will start to become depopulated!
In short, this topic has many sides.
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