� and � no longer in English, why?

In Old English there existed two letters that no longer exist in Modern English. These letters are the �,� (eth) and the �,� (thorn) both produce the 'th' dental sound as in the, through, three. My question is: what is your best guess as to why these letters no longer exist in Modern English? I personally really like these letters and wish they still existed in English like they do in other languages (ie Icelandic).

Edited by King John - 01-Dec-2007 at 03:22

Those were culled from Swedish 500 years ago as well. Seems they are not popular enough.

Originally posted by Paul Much of�the population of England don't pronounce the 'th' at all when they speak and in and around London large numbers are completely unable to even make the sound. The whole 'th' thing(fing) is a dying sound, perhaps that explains why.

Paul, do you have any sources to illustrate this? I lived in London in 2004 and I heard the sound 'th' being spoken by Londoners and others. So I am a little skeptical of this statement.

I also have another part to the question. Is it possible that with the Norman Conquest and the influx of French speaking aristocracy the � and � were eliminated by the Normans? What do you all think about this, likely or unlikely?

For those of you who know Icelandic or Old Norse or any language that has the � and � character could you possibly explain the difference in usage?   That is when do you use one over the other?

Styrbjorn, or anybody else, is that the only difference in usage? Can a � appear anywhere or just at the beginning? Could you spell the Old Norse word fa�r as fa�r or is the thorn strictly used for the beginning of the words and the eth used within the word?

Paul, are you using the Cockney accent as an indicator of all England? I only ask this because your above post is only a short quote from the wikipedia article describing Southern English Dialect. This quote however doesn't discuss all of England but rather a particular London dialect, Cockney. This dialect is not symptomatic of greater English trends of pronunciation. I also ask this because you made the statement earlier that "Much of the population of England don't pronounce the 'th' at all when they speak." Are you then taking the London Cockney accent as indicative of the English ability to pronounce the 'th' sound? The Cockney region of London is mostly the East End (but not entirely). While in London I met many people born and raised in london and as I said before they were fully able to make the 'th' sound.

The question here is more about written English then spoken English. However, spoken English still uses the 'th' sound, some slangs and sub-cultures might replace the 'th' with a 'd' sound. That however doesn't mean that they are unable to make the 'th' sound.

Originally posted by Paul Just putting forward the theory. As you say,�2 of the 3�'th' sounds have died in the english language. All three have died in much of London (primarily the south and east). So it seems to be a naturally dying sound. Perhaps Londoners are just a little ahead of the rest of the country and it will die nationally. � And outside London you are beginning to hear London pronunciation repeated by people believing it's trendy to do so. particularly in the counties around London (there's even a name for this phenomena -mockneye-)�and occasionally even further north.

The 'th' sound hasn't died out though, just the two earlier letters used to represent the sound. Modern English however isn't limited to England or the areas surrounding London, 'th' sound is still in great use in other English speaking nations just like in England. The question at the heart of this thread is why do you think that the �,� and �,� have been replaced (in writing) by the representation of this same sound as 'th'? Why do you think this was the case? Did it have something to do with the Norman Conquest? Would you embrace these letters if the came back into English? (I know this is a silly question but I think the answer is interesting) I personally feel that letters like �, �, �, �, and � give written language a certain unique feel. As opposed to the standard latin alphabet where everything is so standardized and boring.

Neither 'th' sound has died at all in the States. In areas with Germanic or Eastern European people, one is frequently pronounced 'd' and the other 't', although schools attempt to eradicate those pronounciations.

Here's a line by line translation into modern English of Beowulf. It clearly shows the old symbols as used by modern 'th.'


http://www.heorot.dk/beo-intro-rede.html

JT



Edited by jacobtowne - 03-Dec-2007 at 21:06

perhaps the invention of the printing press also played a role.

perhaps because the printing press did not have the same effect in Iceland as it did in England