Rosetta Stone-Decoding the Demotic Text

Originally posted by Petro Invictus all those internet quote base the english translation on Godley. and provided by Perseus. The actual literal translation as given by ancient scripts.com and accepted by Hammond, and Oxford exactly what I mentioned above. Here. I'll post the Oxford quote yet again http://www.ancientscripts.com/search.php?q=Herodotus No Herodotus here!!! By the way: Hammond is one of the modern writers representing the �Greek� position. It�s interesting to note that Hammond had changed his position. His earlier position was that the Macedonians spoke a "patois which was not recognizable as a normal Doric Greek but may have been a north-west-Greek dialect of a primitive kind" (in other words he couldn�t say for sure). Later however, he changed this position and launched his "firm conclusion" that the Macedonians now spoke a dialect of Aeolic Greek, i.e. the ancient Macedonians were Greek, despite of the overwhelming and extensive research done by Badian and Borza which proved the opposite. Interestingly, he had done this �transformation� towards firm Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, during the period when the modern Greek propaganda intensified in spreading their "Macedonians are Greek" position, a position which was later used against the part of the modern Macedonian nation that was in a process of getting independence (today�s Republic of Macedonia). It may look like Hammond is a �Greek agent� whose writings reflect the wishes of modern Greece and it�s propaganda, however, in that process he proved that he was obviously ignorant to many of the ancient sources that do not conclude what he concludes. He is also ignorant to many modern sources as well, particularly the ones of Borza, Green, and Badian which have proven in-depth that the Macedonians could not have been Greek. It should be pointed out that Hammond had been proven incorrect in many matters (not just the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians) regarding the history of Macedonia, specifically by the Macedonian specialist Borza. His views are nowadays corrected and regarded as outdated. .

Histories - Page 24

The Histories

Edited by chicagogeorge - 03-Jan-2008 at 22:33

However, it is interesting to note that the name Danaans was at use in Ptolemy time, for the Greeks, at least in the native language of the living masters!

In the analyzed text, while stating the names of the pharaoh's ancestors, in the 22nd line of the middle text of the stone, the peoples whom they ruled are also mentioned. After the name of the Philopator (НьШе Же НајЅеИто [nьshe zhe naidzeito] - И Нашиот НајСветол [i nashiot naisvetol] (Equivalent in English - And Our Most Bright), for the peoples whom he ruled was written in the original:



which means in today's Macedonian
                                                              [na danajtsive i na gjuptsite.

Equivalent in English: To the Danai (the Greeks) and to the Gypsies).

After the names of Eurgetai (ЖеЉу Пе ИМе [zelju po ime] - Добродетел [dobrodetel] - (Equivalent in English Benefactor)) and Adelphoi (ЅеВо [dzevo] - Светол [svetol] (Equivalent in English Bright) for the peoples whom they ruled was written in the original:



which means in contemporary Macedonian: na danajtsive i na egipetskite danajtsi i na gjuptsite,

(Equivalent in English: the Danai (the Greeks),To the Egyptian Danai (the Egyptian Greeks) and To the Gypsies).

It is interesting to consider the third ethnic group besides the Danai and the Gypsies, i.e. the Egyptian Danai. This means that besides the Danai ethnic group on the Balkans at the time of the first ruler from the Ptolemy dynasty, there existed a separate danai entity on the territory of Egypt. Toward the end of the 11th line in the demotic text this entity is mentioned in the original as:



In English this denotes the Danai from Upper Egypt, by which their territory was determined.

This along with the following map:



Herodotus gave the earliest historical expression of a three-fold division:[1] "... those who dwell in our land are called Ionians, Aeolians and Dorians." General names inherited from earlier times were considered to be in one of these three groups, from the earliest literature; for example, the Achaeans (also known as Danaans, Δαναοί, and Argives, Ἀργεῖοι) were primarily Ionians and Aeolians.

The Achaean League (the Danaans) was a confederation of Greek city states in Achaea, a territory on the northern coast of the Peloponnese.

During the Third Macedonian War (171-168 BC), the League flirted with the idea of an alliance with Perseus, and the Romans punished it by taking several hostages to ensure good behavior, including Polybius, the Hellenistic historian who wrote about the rise of the Roman Empire.

The Aetolian League was a confederation of states in ancient Greece centered on the cities of Aetolia in central Greece. The league was established in 370 BC in opposition to Macedon and the Achaean League.

So, we can guess that the Achaean League was the one in support of the Macedonian conquest, as opposed to the Aetolian league! The Achaeans (or Danaans, as recorded in the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone) were probably considered something like traitors to the Aetolians - the other Greek "party"! Since they worked with the Macedonians!

Could these Danaans of the Achaean League be the Greek speaking citizens of Upper Egypt as recorded in the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone!

Maybe we all have a totally wrong perception of the period in question! Since the Greek world encompassed a lot of parties at the time, lots of groups of people at least, not necessarily ethnic: then maybe the Greek citizens of Egypt at the time, were those Greeks who were allies to the Macedonians, since it was a Macedonian Empire they were taking part in! The allies to the Macedonians were the Danaans or the inhabitants of the cities from the Achaean League!

As opposed to those Greeks from the Aetolian League!

What do you say?   


Edited by Petro Invictus - 03-Jan-2008 at 22:50

Originally posted by Petro Invictus So the Achaean League was the one in support of the Macedonian conquest, as opposed to the Aetolian league! The Achaeans (or Danaans, as recorded in the Demotic text of the Rosetta stone) were probably considered something like traitors to the Aetolians - the other Greek "party"! Since they worked with the Macedonians!

Edited by chicagogeorge - 03-Jan-2008 at 23:12

Originally posted by Petro Invictus All Greeks and Macedonians were fans of Homer's. However Homer wrote in the language closer to the Macedonians, since there are words in his poems that has survived in modern day Macedonian!

I ask you therefore, Cleonicus and Chlaeneas, who were your allies on the former occasion when you invited this people to join you?

Cleonicus (gr. Kleonikos) of Naupactus in Aetolia, was taken prisoner by the Achaean admiral in a descent on the Aetolian coast, in the last year of the social war, 217 BC; but, as he was a proxenos of the Achaeans, he was not sold for a slave with the other prisoners, and was ultimately released without ransom. (Polyb. v. 95.) In the same year, and before his release, Philip V. being anxious for peace with the Aetolians, employed him as his agent in sounding them on the subject. (v. 102.) He was perhaps the same person who is mentioned in the speech of Lyciscus, the Acarnanian envoy (ix. 37), as having been sent by the Aetolians, with Chlaeneas, to excite Lacedaemon against Philip, 211 BC.

So Cleonicus was an Aetolian, an opponent to the Macedonians!

Chlaeneas, an Aetolian was sent by his countrymen as Ambassador to the Lacaedemonians, 211 BC to exite them against Philip V of Macedonia.   

So obviously Polybius is asking this question to these two characters, enemies of Macedonia and the Achaean League!

Well, Polybius was born and raised in the Achaean city of Megalopolis. Polybius was a member of the Greek governing class, with firsthand opportunities to gain deep insight into military and political affairs. His political career was devoted largely towards maintaining the independence of the Achaean League. His father was a chief representative of the policy of neutrality during the war of the Romans against Perseus of Macedonia. He attracted the suspicion of the Romans, and as a result, his son Polybius was one of the 1000 noble Achaeans who in 168 BC were transported to Rome as hostages, and detained there for 17 years.

So if Polybius, an Achaean (an ally to the Macedonians), was addressing the question to the two Aetolians, with distinguished careers working against Macedonia, and since he is talking about the Mightly Cloud is Coming From the West, refering to Rome, this question:

Were they not all the Greeks?

I guess refers to the allies of the Aetolians!

But with whom are you now united, or to what kind of federation are you now inviting this people?

Could it be the Laecedemonians?

Is it not to one with the foreigner? A mighty similarity exists, no doubt, in your minds, and no diversity at all!

(I think he is mocking them!!!)

Then you were contending for glory and supremacy with Achaeans and Macedonians, men of kindred blood with yourselves.

Of course Polybius considered Macedonians closer to the Aetolians and Achaeans than the Romans, since he was an ally to them.

This was in the time when the Alexandrian Koine was at use, and since it was initiated by the Macedonian conquest, the use if this variant of Hellenic was widely used by the Macedonians as well. Therefore, Polybius considers Macedonians as similar or kindred to the Greeks rather than the Romans.

However, at the same time, the Macedonians in Egypt were using their mother tongue with the Demotic text, leaving enough evidence, for us to be able to study them.

Such were the Rosetta stone, the Canopus Decree, and many more to come...







Edited by Petro Invictus - 03-Jan-2008 at 23:29

kai min phonesas epea pteroenta proseuda

кај мене фуфана ебена протурена проседена

It works!Chicagogerge! This sounds so fun! Can you post some more phrases! I can keep translating them!   

I do not know if you understand the words but your Homeric sounds so much like my modern day Macedonian! As for the rest, I wasn't sure it was from Homer. Could you pass the original please?

And an English translation for the words so that I can analyze them for you! I'd love that! I am sorry I can't do that from your Greek words, since I do not speak Greek!

Or maybe you could try translating these "Greek" words from Homer to me as well!

paimiti(s)-

veido, veiden-

ischare-

idri-

kotule-

okkos-

steno-

pliscios-

oditis-

     

Edited by Petro Invictus - 03-Jan-2008 at 23:40

Other inscriptions like this one http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/oi?ikey=218656&bookid=369&region=11&subregion=52
( during Ptolemaios Rein 238 BC) says at the end: " this decree shall be written on stone or copper in hiero(glyph)i(c)s, in Egyptian and in Greek letters"

Why I am sure that the letters of that "Egyptian" are the letters of Tentov's decipherment ???

• VII B 7
• VII B 8
• VII B 12 - FYROM blacklisted

Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 04-Jan-2008 at 03:15