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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Turks & Mongols
    Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 12:32
Why is there such a big difference in poppulation between the Turks & Mongols.

Even without Turkey & with Inner Mongolia the Turks have a huge number compared to the Mongols.

What is the cause of this?
Has this allways been the case?


thanks for the Help Big%20smile

EDIT: mistype Tongue


Edited by xi_tujue - 13-Nov-2007 at 12:36
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:36
Turkic speakers started their expansion much earlier, almost one thousands years yearlier than Mongols (I mean Xianbi-Hunns who moved to the West in 2 AD). I also believe that while Hunns conquered a lot of culturally weaker ethnicities like Finno-ugrian tribes or some remnants of the Skythians and Sarmatians in the central Asia and thus were able to impose their language throught the domination, it was not the case with Mongols who were mostly absorbed into culturally more diverse lands of Central Asia, Iran, China and Southern Russia.
 
So, when the Mongols started their expansion in the 13th century Turkic languages already had a long history of written languages with deep cultural roots. Even Mongols adopted Turkic Uighur script for their language.
 
Also it has a lot of to do with the ideology. Turkic languages in Central Asia were associated with Islam as a core ideology. Mongols didn't have any alternatives to it. They couldn't replace Islam with their own Tengri face and eventually were absorbed by Islam themselves. Absorbation to the Islamic Central Asian culture also meant the absorbation into Turkic languages environment.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 21:42
So your saying lot of mongolic tribes got absorbed into Turkic communities in Central Asia and iran?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:06
Absolutely. Especially in Central Asia. Among Kazakhs and Uzbeks there are many clans which originate from Mongolian tribes for example Naiman, Kiat, Kerei (Keraits) all those are Kazakh clans now.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:11
yeah but still


did the Turks allways have larger Numbers or did it happen after the 6 cent AD?(expension era)
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:19
The expansion era of Turks started much earlier in 2 AD and perhaps even more earlier. The thing is that Turkic tribes were situated to the West from proto-Mongolians. So, they had more room for expansion.
 
So when when the proto Mongols Donghu or Xianbi, pushed to the West, they just triggered the subsequent Turkic migration further to the West.
 
So there was no actual Mongol expansion to the West per se until 13th century, while the Turkic migration to the West began somewhere aroung the start of the Common era.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:25
Be4 the Term Turk existed I mean be4 it was used by the Ashina tribe. Was Turkic spoken by all of the Tribes of Central asia

and did they have a unity or was it every tribe for theselfs if so did the mongolians get separated i mean some joined the Confedaration  and got Turkified and those who didn't stayed "mongolian'
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 22:35
Of course there were Turkic speakers in Central Asia before Ashina, all this started with Xiongnu move to the West.
 
There were also strong states like for example Kyrgyzs who were Turkic speakers.
 
In fact, there is a quite reliable theory that Ashina clan had actually Mongolian origins. Wink
 
Of course, tribes with the close language tried to stay together. But there was a lot of mixture as well. And still is. Look for example at modern Tuvinians culturally speaking they are Mongols, linguistically they are Turks.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Nov-2007 at 23:44
Meanwhile the Mongolic were absorbed into Turkic and Chinese elements in Central Asia, it is also necessary to state that Mongol population was not huge like their Turkic counterparts and they were living in a certain area.After Mongol invasions, they had migrations, however, the Mongols were generally the soldiers and rulers.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 19:33
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Of course there were Turkic speakers in Central Asia before Ashina, all this started with Xiongnu move to the West.
 
There were also strong states like for example Kyrgyzs who were Turkic speakers.
 
In fact, there is a quite reliable theory that Ashina clan had actually Mongolian origins. Wink
 
Of course, tribes with the close language tried to stay together. But there was a lot of mixture as well. And still is. Look for example at modern Tuvinians culturally speaking they are Mongols, linguistically they are Turks.


I verry much Doubt that


The Mongolian Influence in Tuvan culture isn't that old. I mean I think it was after the establishment of the Mongol Empire
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:07
Originally posted by xi_tujue



I verry much Doubt that


The Mongolian Influence in Tuvan culture isn't that old. I mean I think it was after the establishment of the Mongol Empire
 
What do you doubt?
 
Mongol empire was established almost a millenium ago. Isn't 1000 years that old?
 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 20:12
BTW, for example a famous Mongolian general Subudai was Uriankhai. Uriankhai is just an old name for Tuvans.
 
I remember, once Subudai even decieved Kypchaks by saying that they shouldn't fight him since there language and customs are the same. Later he attacked and destroyed the Kypchaks.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2007 at 22:07
duh

Subotai was just a good friend of Temujin since they were little

he was nothiong more than a sheep herder be4

This was one of the thing why Timujin and Yamuka fought about (eventhough the battle between those 2 was inevitable :D )

What subotai did was a cheap shot but nevertheless effective
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 01:25
The thing is that Subotai was very likely Turkic. It related to the problem of Turko-Mongolian mixture and interactions I had addressed earlier.
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  Quote Windemere Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 03:20
I also suspect that many of  the people of Central Asia/Turkestan (Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks, and Turkmens) are probably of mixed Turkic/Turanian and Mongolic descent. Also suspect that some of the peoples of Siberia ( Yakuts, Khakass, and the previously mentioned Uriankhai/Tuvans are of mixed Turkic/Turanian and Mongolic descent. Even though all these people are officially considered to be Turkic instead of Mongolic. Some linguists consider both Turkic and Mongolic to be in the same language family (Ural-Altaic).
 
I also suspect that the Mongols and Tibetans are closely related biologically, though they speak different languages. A Y-chromosome genetic study of Tibetans found that the population has quite a bit of variability in the origin of their haplogroups, some from Turkestan and some from the Far East, though physically the people are similar in appearance. ( Y-chromosome only tells what an individual's genetic origin is, the individual's physical appearance is determined by their overall genetic make-up).
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 10:24
^most of the things you said and were correct is allready known on this site

The Tibetants are more related to the chinese.


the Y-chromosone thing ..............Everybody knows how it spread Wink and not millenia ago I can promise you that Tongue
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 19:44
from what i know Tibetan is related to Burmese...
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2007 at 22:12
i thought they were called sino-tibetan peoples or somethin like that
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 12:40
I think Turkic tribes where much more in number then the mongolian ones, also not to forget the assimilated Turkic tribes in eastern europe (avars-bulgars-kuman and many others). So this means we where huge in numbers.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2007 at 21:34
Originally posted by xi_tujue

i thought they were called sino-tibetan peoples or somethin like that


in my ethnicites book they are in the 'tibeto-burmese' langauge group.
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