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Effectiveness of steppe battle tactics |
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calvo 
General 
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
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 Topic: Effectiveness of steppe battle tacticsPosted: 07-Dec-2007 at 12:50 |
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Have steppe armies ever successfully laid siege to cities without employing mercenaries from sedentary nations who offered infantry and artillery? Sarmat has mentioned Sarmatian cataphracts breaking through Roman testudos.
Most probably they managed to break through while the Roman ranks were aready about to give way.
The major disadvantage of cavalry was that while you could drive people to do crazy things, you could not drive horses because they follow their animal instincts.
Once horses had charged close enough to a dense wall of pikes they woud halt; and if the enemy infantry scared them enough, they could even panic and throw their riders off the saddle.
Furthermore, by halting or ridig slowly in the middle of an infantry formation, the enemy footsoldiers could easily strike at the horses legs.
What I find amazing is how calvary armies could charge the enemy while holding their formation. Must have required sophisticated drill not only for the horsemen but also for the horses.
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Tar Szernd
Consul 
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 15:03 |
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But f.e. pechenegs used wagon fortesses, and the hungarians made in most cases 1-3 war camps (fortifications made of their (or robbed) wagons),. They used them as store and base.
The Tactic of Emperor Leo says that the most efficient way to defeat the nomads is to attack their camps with infantry troops during the night.
(this was certenly just efficient after the nomadic troups were in a tight corner, in other cases usually they had placed patrol units all around their camps)
In one case, writen down in Liudprand's Antapodosis, in the 960's a hungarian unit of 2-300 men catched a 500 men strong greek force, who had surrounded the hungarians:-)
And during a hungarian campaign into Italy, the nomadic riders attacked Venice on leather boats and on their swimming horses. :-)))))))
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Temujin
King 
Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 07-Dec-2007 at 20:39 |
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whats your source on that? i never read that, and it wouldn't have been effective anyways.
thats a common misconception, horses can and will do everyhting the rider wants if properly trained. Edited by Temujin - 07-Dec-2007 at 20:41 |
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Justinian
Chieftain 
King of Númenor Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1399 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 01:02 |
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Sarmat - you misunderstood; the battle was indeed small, my point was the tactics alexander used to win were worth studying. I did not mean to say alexander subdued the scythians, nothing of the sort. What happened was he defeated this raiding party basically and overawed/intimidated the scythians enough to keep them from raiding across the jaxartes again while he lived. Hope that explains it better.
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Sarmat
Caliph 
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:09 |
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It's really strange that you didn't read about this before. I read it in a number of books, in Gumilev's "Hunnu" for example. He actually wrote that the the spears were fixed on horses' necks with a special chain. Parthian heavy cavalrymen did the same thing. Sarmatian spears were about 3-3.5 meters long and they hold them with both hands. I think Gorelik has a picture of Sarmatian warrior with the spear fixed like this.
Why do you think it would be ineffective? I believe it, on the contrary, was very effective. Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:56 |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:13 |
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But are there any descriptions of this tactics? Destruction of a small detachment of Skythians IMO wouldn't require a very advanced tactics. Macedonians could just take them by surprise. And I really very strongly doubt that the Skythians were that intimidated by Alexander. Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Dec-2007 at 05:45 |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 05:44 |
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Yes, you can also drive the horse crazy with the proper training. Actually you even can close their eyes and force them to charge with the closed eyes.
Steppe warriors themselves, sometimes used narcotics before the attack. Most often the smoke hemp.
Also they have special "kamikaze" units for breaking through enemies ranks. Mongols had them for example.
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 08:41 |
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It reminds me of some joke.
Some breeder wanted to sell a horse. He found a man who wanted to buy a horse. - This horse is worth 100.000 zloty.
- What? 100.000 zloty? Why is it so expensive?
- Ride it. You will see.
The man mounted the horse and galloped. Unfortunately his riding was very short. The horse hit a wall.
- What the hell? This horse is blind!
- Yes, but look how brave it is! |
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Tar Szernd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 12:00 |
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Philippos defeated a scythian army by the Danube in 339 BC. Even Ateas, their 90 years old!!! king was killed. (Lucianos)
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calvo
General
Joined: 20-May-2007 Location: Spain Online Status: Offline Posts: 846 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 12:12 |
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Youd certainly need to train the horse very well to make it do crazy things. A representative cinematic portrayal of calvary against dense infantry formation was in the 2006 Spanish film Alatriste. In the final battle scene the Spanish Tercios formed up in a dense phalanx while the French knights tried to charge them. The horses always stopped short of the wall of pikes; and some pikemen took the opportunity to thrust at its legs. The steppe nations, having been brought up on the saddle, probably drilled their horses to a much higher standard than the French cavalry in the 1600s. Is there any film that correctly portrays the battle formation adopted by steppe nomads? I have seen a few clips on Youtube of the Russian film Mongol. Would you say that the portrayal of the battle tactics was realistic, or was it more a fairy tale? |
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ataman
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Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 14:47 |
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Calvo, do you mean this movie
I have to watch it  Edited by ataman - 08-Dec-2007 at 14:48 |
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xi_tujue
Arch Duke 
Atabeg Joined: 19-May-2006 Location: Belgium Online Status: Offline Posts: 1919 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 14:58 |
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Turkmens used opium Pills to gibe the horse that 'extra' for the long gallops. Sometimes 70 km  thats allotso i think they had different kinds of pills |
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I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:15 |
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For sure you can't even compare French cavalrymen of the 17th century with Nomades, especially Sarmatians.
The horses of steppans were trained all their life. Nomades spend all their life with horses. The slept and eat on horses. Everything they had and everything they cherished related to their horses. Some authors even write that the horse was actually a continuation of the nomade's body and that they were the real centauros.
Very often a horse and nomad understood each other so well that the horse performed everything the rider needed everything without any command.
For sure, those horse could and were trained for the above mentioned type of suicide attacks.
The Russian movie, which we actually have already discussed was very dissapointing
 .Although it indeed has some nice moments, but, generaly speaking, is was a big disappointment.
The battle shown in the clip does have some features of mongol fighting tactics, but overall it can't be regarded as an adequate depiction of Mongol warfare.
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Temujin
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Sirdar Bahadur Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Eurasia Online Status: Offline Posts: 5221 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 19:56 |
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i really never heard about this, are you sure it is an accurate translation? of what efficiency is it to fix a lance to a horsehead? as you said the ancienct cataphracts used the two-handed grip to the lance, that doesn't recquire any fixing at all, unless you want to limit the range of the lance.
even for steppe battle tactics it is horrbile, even such minor details like the release of the bows is inaccurate, they have the mediterranean release and no thumb draw...  also note the numerous infantrymen in the final battle
i don't understand the problem, trained military horses can and will do anything. read up the battles of Megiddo or Bersheeba in 1917/18, many horses being (mortally) hit by machine gun fire in the chest, legs or even head continued their charge to the enemy lines and only then collapsed. horses are incredible creatures with much more stamina than humans. even riderless horses, due to the drill, will rally to the sound of the units trumpet, there are numerous accounts of that from all times. as for Alatriste. the French (in particular but also most other european nations) at this time had a cavalry tactic called "caracole", which means to charge at the enemy pike formation, shot the pistol and then retire over the flanks to reload the weapon behind the own lines to make another charge. watch the movie again, what do you expect pistol-armed cavalry to do other than to shoot their pistols? Edited by Temujin - 08-Dec-2007 at 20:05 |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 08-Dec-2007 at 20:37 |
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Yes, I'm absolutely sure. It wasn't like fixing it to the head. There were several belts and chains fixed on the horse's neck (it's lover part) and the front part of horse's body. Then the was a chain or a belt on the right (usually) side. And they fixed the spear to this chain or belt. It wasn't like the horse being choked by all this ropes. The horse didn't have much trouble with that system. But when they fixed the spear and charged, it allowed to input all the horse mass and spead into the strike. So such kind of blow was pretty devastating for a closed infantry formations. I don't thing it was used against cavalry. They also could easily unlock the spear if the needed.
When I have more time, I'll try to find and post the picture by Gorelik of a cataphract like this.
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Justinian
Chieftain
King of Númenor Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1399 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:42 |
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Yes, I've come across several biographies of Alexander that have maps and describe the tactics he used in his engagement against the scythians. If you want I could look for some online sources. Technically, yes, however the macedonians didn't just suprise the scythians, they tricked them using superior tactics.
A poor choice of words on my part. I meant to say that he beat them and by doing so they decided not to invade his territory again.
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Justinian
Chieftain
King of Númenor Joined: 11-Nov-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1399 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 02:47 |
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Sarmat - I hope you can find your source for that tactic of giving the horse a lance. I am intrigued. That would be incredible ingenuity. |
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 04:47 |
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Temujin, you are right that the tactic of French cavalry was different than in the movie. But I've found in internet that it is the movie about 17th c. In that time French cavalrymen used different tactic than the caracole.
Since about 1580's, French cavalrymen charged in this way - they slowly approached to enemies (at pace or at trot) at the distance10-20m (the closer, the better). The first rank (or 2 first ranks) shot to enemies. After that cavalrymen put away their pistols (or carabines), drew their swords out and charged (usually at trot; in exceptional case at gallop) with a cold steel. This tactic was later copied by Gustavus Adolphus and other armies in Western Europe.
Caracole was sometimes used also in 17th c. in Europe, but using this tactic was condemned in France since at least 1580's.
The movie shows French cavalrymen who approach enemies at gallop. It is mistake. They also approach in a loose formation (in fact there is no formation at all). It is another mistake. They should ride in a 'knee to knee' 6 ranks formation.
They also shoot to enemies at too big distance. And they don't use swords at all (at least I can't find any sword in any cavalryman's hand). Edited by ataman - 09-Dec-2007 at 05:06 |
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Tar Szernd
Consul
Joined: 28-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 384 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 10:01 |
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In the 9-10 th century (after the 'Tactic') had used bows and lances (and small spears(Liudprand)) as primary weapons. If the lance was not used, it was fixed with leather strips on the back of the warrior or on the horse. In the last case the lance could had been fixed vertical or horisontal. The horisontal way was surely much more better, because if the battle took place in a woody, shruby area, the lance wouldn't hang up in the bush and on the trees.
Could this second lance on the horse just be a misunderstanding of these not used lance fixing? (like the huns and their dinner(the meat) under the saddle? The meat was just medicine for the wounded horseback.) Edited by Tar Szernd - 09-Dec-2007 at 10:36 |
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Sarmat
Caliph
Joined: 31-May-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3113 |
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Posted: 09-Dec-2007 at 23:40 |
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Guys, I'm really surprised that you found it so outstanding. Ok, I'll just transalte a short paragraph from a Russian article about cataphracts, which also gives an antique source for this.
Original Russian paragraph from the article about cataphracts(source:http://www.xlegio.ru/armies/cataphractes/cataphractes.htm ):
Второй особенностью как катафрактариев, так и более поздних клибанариев было их главное наступательное оружие пики, достигавшие в длину 4-4,5 м, которые держали обеими руками. Гелиодор оставил интереснейшее описание того, как управлялись с подобной пикой: "Когда наступает время битвы, то, ослабив поводья и горяча коня боевым криком, он (катафрактарий. А.X.) мчится на противника, подобный какому-то железному человеку или движущейся кованой статуе. Острие копья сильно выдается вперед, само копье ремнем прикреплено к шее коня; нижний его конец при помощи петли держится на крупе коня, в схватках копье не поддается, но, помогая руке всадника, всего лишь направляющей удар, само напрягается и твердо упирается, нанося сильное ранение, и в своем стремительном натиске колет кого ни попало, одним ударом часто пронзая двоих" (12).
My humble translation into English
The second feature of cataphractes, and later clibanaries was their main offensive weapon - lance which had length of 4-4,5 m and was held with both hands. Heliodoros has left the most interesting description of the way that lance was handled: " When there comes the time of combat, a cataphract having weakened mouthpiece and inspiring the horse with a battle cry rushes on the enemy like an iron man or a moving statue made of steel. The edge of the spear strongly stands out forward, the spear iself is fixed by the belt to the neck of the horse; its bottom is fixed by a loop on the groats of the horse; in the fighting the spear does not give in, but being directed by the hand of the horseman, makes only a front strike, it strains and firmly rests inflicting a serious wound, and in the impetuous onslaught pricks everything it meets one in its way, very often piercing two (men) with one strike. " (12).
Original antique source of the quotation is:
12. Heliod., Aephiop. IX, 15.
Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Dec-2007 at 04:46 |
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