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Best WWII plane in dog fight

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  Quote Kids Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Best WWII plane in dog fight
    Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 16:44
My choice is one and onley----Spitfire IXc


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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 17:40

Originally posted by Kids

My choice is one and onley----Spitfire IXc


Easily the most maneuverable plane of the War, aside from Italy's beautiful Macchi Folgore (the only fighter which could turn inside a Spitfire, btw).  The Folgore, however, lacked armor protection, so I'd have to agree with the Spitfire.

The P-47 Thunderbolt was a great fighter--unbeatable in a dive--and it's solid construction and heavy armor made it extremely difficult to shoot down.  When Robert S. Johnson's P-47 was shot up with 20mm shells and MG bullets from a nameless Focke Wulf, the German pilot (who was amazed that the American plane was still flying) pulled up alongside Johnson (close enough that Johnson could see that his eyes were brown), saluted him, and let him go!

The Mitsubishi Zero-Sen was great in dogfights, but the large amount of magnesium in its construction made it prone to burning.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote BlackPanther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 02:19
and wat about German Stukas... i have heard they were gret too... especially in dog-fights..
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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2005 at 02:45
Stuka is not a plane to be in a dog fight.
They were dive bombers, turned pretty good but were way too slow. That is why they had rear gunners.

The best dogfighters were the ones that allowed you never get in a fight like Hartman's Bf109G. He just blasted you from above before before you knew it.
Pokryshkin, Russian ace in an American P39 used this tactic as well.

Would never be caught in a turn fight against a zero.
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  Quote SonoftheUSA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-May-2005 at 20:53

P-51 mustangs

best in my book

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 15:02
up to 6000 m - F4U Corsair, high-altitude - German Ta 152
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-May-2005 at 16:24
Originally posted by TJK

German Ta 152

Not the prettiest plane around, but it just screams agility.

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  Quote redimus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2005 at 15:56

I'd also vote the Mustang, with a respectful nod to the Corsair.  

Spitfire?  cmon....

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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 11:36
I would say the FW190dw - the modified version of the Focke-Wulfe that appeared in 1944. Combination of speed, strong armament and good armor. And what about the Me262? Show me another plane that was faster?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 17:35

Since speed is the deciding factor in most dogfights, I would vote the Me 262 as the best dogfighter, based both on speed and the weight of lead tossed out the front end, the canons delivering far more damage than the American .50's.

One thing people tend to forget is that great manueverability is accomplished at the sacrifice of speed.  Sure the Zero could out-turn Allied fighters like the P-38, but why did the P-38 have a 10-1 kill ratio against the Zero?  Mainly because it was faster (certainly the ruggedness of the aircraft helped too.)

 

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 19:36
Originally posted by Decebal

Combination of speed, strong armament and good armor. And what about the Me262? Show me another plane that was faster?








The Lockheed P-80(USA) reached speeds @ 558mph-898km/h to the Me262's 540mph-870km/h and was more maneuverable. As usual, there are many variables in dogfights but in a 1-on-1, the P-80 wins.

The Schwalbe's best chance would have been use its weight and pounce an unsuspected P-80. This is the method that Mustangs used to kill Me262s as well as simply shooting them while they land.

Later models of P-80 after the war flew past 1000km/h and faught againts MiGs in Korea.



Edited by Catt
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 20:00

The Me262 had 4 * gun 30mm vs the P80 which had 6 mg with 12.7 mm caliber. In a fight, it would have been very tough for the P80, even with its superior speed.

Also, I don't consider the P80 to be a "true" WW2 plane. The Shooting Star was possibly the best Allied jet fighter to emerge from World War II (called the P-80 until after WWII), however, like the other Allied jets it was too late to be used in combat. Several were flown around Italy late in the war, but they never saw the enemy. Seeing as how it never actually was involved in a dog fight, I don't think it should be included in this discussion.

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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2005 at 21:35

It was in the theater before the war ended...

 

Anyways the Me-262 was not known for its ruggedness in fact for a jet fighter it was surprisingly fragile.  The Me-262's cannon's would not level the playing field. 

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2005 at 06:30
The Me262's heavy weaponry would not be any good against a (Y)P-80As if it couldnt get a good shot.
These heavy guns were for intercepting, not dogfighting and had a slow rate of fire.
The P-80 was designed to fight and its guns were very adequate. The Me262 had a glass jaw,its Jumo engines were very sensitive. They would lose cosiderable thrust or stall/cut-out at higher altitudes compared to the P-80 which had better speeds, maneuverablity and roll rates at all altitudes.
It is understandable that the P-80 is superior, it came later in the war.

Not true WW2 planes? They are WW2 planes nonetheless, not prototypes. They didnt fight because the enemys air power was destroyed.
No combat for them but the 262 was not used as a fighter either.
P-80s 44-83028 and 44-83029 that were sent to Italy for trials did do operational sorties from what I have read but again did not have to engage the enemy.
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  Quote aghart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2005 at 18:47

The Spitfire mk9 was intended to be a short term solution to the FW190 but in fact turned out to be a truley fantastic fighter and wins this discussion hands down.

 

Jet powered aircraft do not qualify as we are talking dogfighting in WW2 and insufficient evidence is available (actual combat evidence I mean) to justify inclusion.

The P51 Mustang was without doubt the best overall fighter of WWII,  but this thread is about dogfighting and dogfighting alone, and so just accept it folks, "THE SPITFIRE RULES SUPREME".

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2005 at 19:34
Originally posted by aghart

Jet powered aircraft do not qualify as we are talking dogfighting in WW2 and insufficient evidence is available (actual combat evidence I mean) to justify inclusion.

There has been reports of british "vampires" engaging with Me-262's over europe in 1945.


Personly.... best dog fighting airplane.... I would have to go with the later models of the Fw-190, very very nice plane. Some models at the end of the war carried 2x 30mm cannons,2x 20mm cannons, and 2x 12mm machine guns. That right there is a hell of some fire power, plus it was very durible, and had good speed. Every nation had there "pride and joy fighter aircraft", so I couldnt say that there is a "best"
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Oct-2005 at 23:48
I would have to go with the mustang
because the germans could not come up with an answer for it
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  Quote Cezar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 12:12

Best dogfighting plane - which means best turning ability - goes without doubt to the Spitfire IXC and XIVE. The FW 190 D series or Ta 152 were still inferior to those but were packing a real punch. Yet the best fighter in terms of dogfighting ability was the Soviet Yak 7 (or maybe Yak 3, I'm not sure). While this plane had no tremendous firepower, what it had was enough for matching it's Luftwaffe counterparts.

The Me 262, P-47, Meteor, even Tempest were not dogfighting planes. They were more like "dash, slash and kill" fighters.

As for the P-51, it was the best fighter in WWII just as T-34 was the best tank. The latest series of German fighters were superior. But what can you do with a fiew brilliant fighters against an overwhelming number of very reliable fighters (not to mention the very tough bombers)? This also goes for the Hellcat and the Corsair.

 

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  Quote DukeC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 14:27

I agree with Cezar.

Below 6000 metres the Yak-3s speed and manueverablilty gave it superior performance over any German piston fighter. German fighter pilots on the Eastern Front were ordered to avoid it in combat.



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  Quote Laelius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2005 at 18:40

In terms of pure dogfighting I'd have to go with the A6M zero when in the hands of a skilled pilot.  In spite of its liabilities this little honey wasn't something you'd want to face in a close up knife fight.

 

As for the P-51, although an excellent fighter and though it was aneffective dogfighter but it did have some troubling faults.  For one thing its lack of wing space resulted in occasional jamming in high g turns due to the cramped configuration of its machine guns.  The advantage of the Mustang lay, asides from its range, in its speed and high speed handling.  Above 300 mph the Mustangs leading edge wings allowed for a near unparalleled level of agility and manueverability(only the Corsair could match its handling at these speeds with the exception of jets), at these speeds it'd make the likes of a Spitfire seem like a flying brick.  Of course dogfights ussually occur at very slow speeds.



Edited by Laelius
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