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Armenians, descendants of Sakson

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Temujin View Drop Down
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Armenians, descendants of Sakson
    Posted: 24-Dec-2007 at 20:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No one has proved here that Saxon is a Germanic langauge.




you're kidding? Confused beorna is living proove that Saxon is more similar to other germanic languages than Iranian languages. we can make a simple test to proove that. You talk Iranian to him and he will talk Saxon to you, then I will talk Swabian to him and he will talk Saxon to me. so if he udnerstands you better than me, you've won... LOL


also, whats your source that Scythians/Saka practices Mithraism?

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  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 10:30
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No one has proved here that Saxon is a Germanic langauge.

Please mention some Saxon words similar to words in Germanic, Celtic or Latin languages but not Iranian.

For example about the names of animals: Bird, Dog, Sheep, Pig, ... (I can prove these are all just Scythian words)

 
Hungarian: nyaklnc= english: necklace. But these languages had almost nothing to do with each other until now.
 
on the other hand (hung-iranian):
 
hungarian balta= axe
                 kard= sword
                 kar= arm


Edited by Tar Szernd - 25-Dec-2007 at 10:31
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 15:41
Originally posted by Yekta

Where is your source for svera meaning mother-in-law in old norse? (in any dialect)
 
Zoega's Old Icelandic dictionary. It's svera in my own dialect as well, though I can't "prove" that since my dialect doesn't have a dictionary. 
 
 
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No one has proved here that Saxon is a Germanic langauge.
You're not making yourself look good with statements like this.
 
(you need access, but maybe your university has)
 
 
 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 25-Dec-2007 at 15:45
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 17:56

Aspects of word order and information structure in Old Saxon: http://www.sfb632.uni-potsdam.de/publications/B4/B4_Linde.pdf

I see really no difference between Saxon and Persian grammar, lets compare this sentence:

Old Saxon: siu uuelde tho ira geba egan
Modern Persian: U xvast ta ura gaben dehand
she wanted PART her gift have

Meaning: She wanted to have her reward.

U means both He & She in the Modern Persian but in the Old Persian Hau=He & Sau=She
Ura=her/his (u=he/she + ra=belonging to)
Gaben means neither "gift" nor "reward" but "payment for a wife" (Mahriya in Arabic), I'm sure "geba" meant the same in the Old Saxon language.

It is not difficult for me to read old Saxon texts because I know Old Persian language. Smile


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 25-Dec-2007 at 18:08
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 18:46
thea liudi stodun umbi that helaga hus

so whats that in Persian?
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2007 at 22:14

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Aspects of word order and information structure in Old Saxon: http://www.sfb632.uni-potsdam.de/publications/B4/B4_Linde.pdf


I see really no difference between Saxon and Persian grammar, lets compare this sentence:


Old Saxon: siu uuelde tho ira geba eganModern Persian: U xvast ta ura gaben dehandshe wanted PART her gift have


Meaning: ‘She wanted to have her reward.’


U means both He & She in the Modern Persian but in the Old Persian Hau=He & Sau=SheUra=her/his (u=he/she + ra=belonging to)



So what? Most of the sentences in that script has the same word order in Swedish.

Also, your source starts with this part: Current research on the development of word order in the Germanic languages suffers from the lack of a consistent description of the situation in Old Saxon which offers one of the earlierst writing traditions of the Germanic group at all.

Your very own linguistical source clearly states it's a Germanic language! And so does every single other source as well. I can't believe that you, a to-be historian is even trying to claim the opposite.

Gaben means neither "gift" nor "reward" but "payment for a wife" (Mahriya in Arabic), I'm sure "geba" meant the same in the Old Saxon language.


Gabe means exactly gift in the current Saxon language. Are you seriously trying to say that it's more probable that in Old Saxon, it meant "payment for a wife", when it means gift in not only all other Germanic languages, but also in its direct descendant?!

I suggest you contact the linguistical department of the Univeristy of Potsdam (which you got your text from) with your theory, and see what they think.


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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 14:14

thea liudi stodun umbi that helaga hus

so whats that in Persian?

These are all pure Iranian words.

Saxon Liudi (Lads/Young Men)

Persian Rad (Young man) ["r" & "l" can be considered the same becuase there was no "l" in the old Persian alphabet]

Saxon Stodun (stood pl.)

Persian stod = stood (one) & stodand= stood (plural)


Saxon Helaga (Holy/Wholeness/Health)

Persian Herat & Avestan Haurvat (One of the seven Zoroastrian Amesha Spentas & name of a city in Afghanistan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khordad : Haurvatat is the Avestan language name of the Zoroastrian concept and hypostasis of "wholeness." As a divinity, Haurvatat is the Amesha Spenta of health.

About the English word Holy: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=holy&searchmode=none
Primary (pre-Christian) meaning is not impossible to determine, but it was probably "that must be preserved whole or intact, that cannot be transgressed or violated," and connected with O.E. hal (see health) and O.H.G. heil "health, happiness, good luck"

Saxon Hus (House)

Persian Hods & Avestan Hadish (The guardian spirit of the house in Zoroastrianism)

http://tenets.zoroastrianism.com/relnook1.html : The fire protects the family from all evil, and its presence is conducive to the preservation of Zoroastrian traits and values. The guardian spirit of the house, called Hadish in the Avestan scriptures, blesses the dwellings of righteous Zoroastrians.

So what? Most of the sentences in that script has the same word order in Swedish.

Also, your source starts with this part: Current research on the development of word order in the Germanic languages suffers from the lack of a consistent description of the situation in Old Saxon which offers one of the earlierst writing traditions of the Germanic group at all.

Your very own linguistical source clearly states it's a Germanic language! And so does every single other source as well. I can't believe that you, a to-be historian is even trying to claim the opposite.


It is really very difficult to change a false common belief, I myself have to believe Saxon is a Germanic laguage by considering just its geographic location.

Gabe means exactly gift in the current Saxon language. Are you seriously trying to say that it's more probable that in Old Saxon, it meant "payment for a wife", when it means gift in not only all other Germanic languages, but also in its direct descendant?!

Source Please.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gift&searchmode=none -> Gift, from O.N. gift, from P.Gmc. *giftiz (cf. O.Fris. jefte, M.Du. ghifte "gift," Ger. Mitgift "dowry"), from PIE base *ghabh- "to give or receive" (see habit). O.E. cognate gift meant "bride-price, marriage gift (by the groom), dowry"



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 26-Dec-2007 at 16:18
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 15:05
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Source Please.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gift&searchmode=none -> Gift, from O.N. gift, from P.Gmc. *giftiz (cf. O.Fris. jefte, M.Du. ghifte "gift," Ger. Mitgift "dowry"), from PIE base *ghabh- "to give or receive" (see habit). O.E. cognate gift meant "bride-price, marriage gift (by the groom), dowry"

 
Source? Any dictionary in the appropriate languages.
 
I understand the confusion though, because in modern English gift means "gift" as in any kind of thing one gives. They are directly related to each other as well. For example, gift in the following languages:
 
Old Saxon: geb
Modern German: Gabe
Old Norse: gjafr
Icelandic: gfa
Swedish: gva
Norwegian: gave
 
But, dowry:
German: Mitgift
Old English: gift
Old Swedish: gifta (literally "give away in marriage")
Icelandic: gipta (literally "give away in marriage")
Swedish: hemgift
Norwegian: medgift
 
 
 


Edited by Styrbiorn - 26-Dec-2007 at 15:08
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 18:00

But "Geba" is certainly not an Indo-European word, the old Persian word was "Getba" which came from Hebrew "Ketubah" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah

Ketubah means "writing" or "written" and refers to the document that is signed by witnesses before and often read during a Jewish wedding.

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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 18:14
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

But "Geba" is certainly not an Indo-European word, the old Persian word was "Getba" which came from Hebrew "Ketubah" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketubah

Ketubah means "writing" or "written" and refers to the document that is signed by witnesses before and often read during a Jewish wedding.

It's definitely IE, and surely comes from the Proto-Germanic verb gebanan, "to give", which in turn comes from the proto-Indo-European stem *ghan.
 
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 19:24
I think it is obvious that "give" and "bride-price" are two different words, "Gift" is itself an Old Saxon word, in the Persian language we have "Grifta" which comes from the verb "Griftan" (to receive and grip) but "Geba" is another word which just means "bride-price".
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2007 at 21:07

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I think it is obvious that "give" and "bride-price" are two different words, "Gift" is itself an Old Saxon word, in the Persian language we have "Grifta" which comes from the verb"Griftan" (to receive andgrip) but "Geba" is another word which just means "bride-price".

I've already provided proof on the contrary. They both derive from the verb meaning to give.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2007 at 09:41
I believe "give" relates to none of them, many things can be given, not only "gift" and "bride-price", that letter "t" is important in the "gift", so this word, like the Persian word "Grifta", should relate to the words "Greeting", "Gratitude", "Grateful", "Gratuity", ...
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 16:01
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

No one has proved here that Saxon is a Germanic langauge.




you're kidding? Confused beorna is living proove that Saxon is more similar to other germanic languages than Iranian languages. we can make a simple test to proove that. You talk Iranian to him and he will talk Saxon to you, then I will talk Swabian to him and he will talk Saxon to me. so if he udnerstands you better than me, you've won... LOL


also, whats your source that Scythians/Saka practices Mithraism?

 
I am sorry to say that I am no living proove that Saxon is more similar to Germanic languages than to Iranian. The Old Saxon (Old Lower-German)developed to Middle-Lower-German and New-Lower-German. There are still some regions in Germany where it is spoken, but mostly the older ones do. It is frequently in East-Frisia, where the originally Frisian extict. The only region where Low-German is spoken today are the Netherlands and Vlandern. So my great-grand-mother spoke it, but my mother e.g. forbid her and her parents to speak it because it was the language of the underclass. What Germans speak today is High-Germany, that became famous with Luther's bible translation.
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 16:34

Cyrus, of course there are similar words in Saxon and Persian, both are Indoeuropean languages.

Perhaps you can translated this!

1) Tho geng im thanan mid grimmo hugi, habda in god selbo suido farsakan; sorogo uuard thar thuo gikudit adama endi Euun, inuuidd mikil, iro kindes qualm, that he ni muosta quik libbian.

or

2) Lat thit folc sehan, huo thu gelinod habas liudio menegi te blidzeanne an benkiun; ef thu mi thera bede tugithos, min uuord for thesumu uuerode, than uuilliu ik it her te uuarun gequeden.

Or perhaps you want

3)Forsachistu diabolae?
Ec forsacho diabolae.
end allum diobolgelde?
end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae.
end allum dioboles uuercum?
end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uoden ende Saxnote ende allum them unholdum, the hira genotas sint.
Gelobistu in got, alamehtigan fadaer?
ec gelobo in got, alamehtigan fadaer.
Gelobistu in Crist, godes sunu?
....
Gelobistu in halogan gast?
......
 
You want a frankish version?
 
Forsahhistu unholdun?
ih fursahhu.
Forsahhistu unholdun uuerc indi uuillon?
ic fursahhu.
Forsahhistu allem them bluostrum indi den gelton indi den gotum, thie im heidene man ze bluostrum indi zi geldom enti zi gotum haben?
ih fursahhu.
Gilaubistu in got, fater almahtigan?
ih gilaubu.
Gilaubistu in Christ, gotes sun neriento?
ih gilaubu.
Gilaubistu in heilagan geist?
ih gilaubu......
 
Doesn't frankish sounds similar to Saxon. Are the Franks Skythians too?
Do you still believe Saxon is Persian or Skythian?
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2008 at 09:52
Do you have some problems with it, Cyrus?
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 14:30

I am involved in some research on another subject: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=22988&PN=1

Ok, lets comapre the second one:

2) Lat thit folc sehan, huo thu gelinod.

Lat=Rat (Late) from Dirat (Delay)
Thit=Atit (This)
Folc=Forugan (Folk/Ordinary People) [Foru=Inferior]
Sehan=Sahiand ([they] see) from Sahidan (to see)
Huo=Chou (What)
Thu=Thu (You)
Gelinod (Prefix "Ge-" [past-participle prefix] + "Linod")= Ravind (Learn/Find the track) [Rah=Road/Track & Vind=Find]

so this sentence can be translated as "Late this people see what you have learned."

Doesn't frankish sounds similar to Saxon. Are the Franks Skythians too?

Is it important for you what Franks themselves say?

Liber historiae Francorum ("The book of the history of the Franks"): Franks were a people who settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov (north of the Black sea) and founded a city called "Sicambria".

Sicambri was the same Sakamvari in Middle Persian, Saka Haumavarga in the Old Persian and Amyrgian Scythian in Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians: "The Sacae, or Scyths, were clad in trousers, and had on their heads tall stiff caps rising to a point. They bore the bow of their country and the dagger; besides which they carried the battle-axe, or sagaris. They were in truth Amyrgian (Western) Scythians, but the Persians called them Sacae, since that is the name which they gave to all Scythians." (Herodotus VII. 64)

More info about Sagaris (Sax): http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/axes.html 

What was a Franca? Javelin? a Scythian Franga, from Avestan frangan (to fling)?


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 03-Jan-2008 at 14:31
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 16:04
Well done, Cyrus.
 
Lat thit folc sehan huo thu gelinod (old saxon)
 
Lass(Let) dies(this) volk (folk) sehen (see) wo(who) du(thou) gelernt (learned)  (Word by word translation)
 
You see the similarity to German and English? Perhaps you show us Persian
 
Damned, you know the box of pandora? I opened it. I know these nonsense about the Franks. First of all I never knew that Pannonia is close to Azov. So probably the one who wrote it had no idea of geograpics never ever. Then this Pannonia is written wrong for a region at the North Sea Coast, called Baunonia. The Sigambrians are a western-germanic nation at the Rhine. It is not really clear if they shared the Frankish nations. Frankish means wild or brave. The franka is the weapon of the Franks. The Franks are same as the Saxons not one single nation. There a Chamavians, Salians, Chattuarians, Brukterians, Tubantes, Usipites, Tenkteres and perhaps Chattians. The Merovingians have their origin at the coastal area too. They shall descant from a bistea Neptuni Minotaurus similis. There is nothing Skythian at all.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 16:10

Originally posted by beorna

Well done, Cyrus.
Lat thit folc sehan huo thu gelinod (old saxon)

Lass(Let) dies(this) volk (folk) sehen (see) wo(who) du(thou) gelernt (learned) (Word by word translation)

Lt ditt folk se hvem thu lrt. Even the word order is preserved in Swedish (hvem and thu is archaic though, modern spelling would be vem and du).
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  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 16:41
Thank you for your support.
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