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Did the French win the American Revolution?

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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did the French win the American Revolution?
    Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 19:48
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by gcle2003

..That's not the same thing as saying that the rebels could not have possibly succeeded in the longer term. I'd speculate that the rebellion would have been quelled in the 'eighties, but that the Americans would have taken advantage of the Napoleonic wars to break free at that point.


Who says there would have been any Napoleonic wars without the events that followed colonial Independence, i.e. the French Revolution. Smile
 
You have a point. When you start speculating, where do you stop?
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Oct-2007 at 17:22
Probably safe to assume there would have been another European war sooner or later that the colonists might have taken advantage of. The other alternative would be to assume that in the post rebellion period, the British might have accommodated some of the rebels demands to forestall another insurrection. 
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  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2007 at 18:56
It is 100 percent true, as true as we the british could not have liberated europe without american help, the americans evened the score and paid france back.
Quite why we felt the need to help is just down to good characterWink
 
Anyway we got our pride back in 1812 and i dont think the bond between britain and americas ever been stronger.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 02:41
Originally posted by andrew

Not really, they were imperative in the Siege of Yorktown defeating the British fleet leaving their army strounded and unable to leave. They did send support, but were very reluctant thinking this would make a direct clash with Britain who pretty much owned them so they wondered is it worth it? Therefore the Americans had to prove that they can beat Britain and as they started to gain victories, such as Saratoga and Ticonderoga, did they join and help America.
[DIV][/DIV]
[DIV]Still, they gave them money but not much else. They gave them money and professionals to train their army, also note so did the Prussians. At the end of the war America was indebted to France but to also the Swedes, Prussians, and Dutch for money. The French played a large role but not enough to be the deciding factor, I think the Americans were.[/DIV]
[DIV][/DIV]
[DIV]So why do Americans hate the French so much?[/DIV]


You are forgetting General Rochambeau and his expeditionary force and also De Grasse's troops. I think French provided about half of well trained and disciplined troops in the battle of Yorktown. On top of that advice of a professional soldier like Rochambeau was invaluable.
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  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 03:41
The French navy basically acted as the American navy, without it the Americans didnt have much of a chance to win with British ships blockading the entire country. With no external supplies, the Americans would soon begin to feel the pressure.
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  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 05:45
A resounding "No." If India could throw off the British yoke through non-violent resolution, America could do it fighting. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 06:15
India was abandoned, not thrown off. The Brits learnt a lot from the American rebellion. If they played it in 1776 as they would play in 1876, the would have crushed the rebellion easily. But then, they would not have enacted the laws that they did, the Brits after the American experience went out of their way not to annoy the locals.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 12:11
Look folks, fortuitous circumstances can be explained in many ways and people forget the royal crest of Carlos III on the cannons the Americans deployed at Ticonderoga. By 1780, the UK was confronting a formidable array of opponents and its European trade undergoing serious disruption. The fact remains that the sailing of the French fleet did establish a momentary naval ascendancy in the Western Atlantic and the possibility of a joint Franco-Spanish naval assault in the Caribbean did stand poised to threaten the really profitable British presence in the Americas. DeGrasse did defeat a British fleet and force its withdrawal from the Chesapeake, hence British control of American ports without any hegemony over the hinterland constituted an empty hegemony. The defeat of Cornwallis pretty well sundered any potential British offensive subsequent to the 1781 sailing season.
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  Quote Koichi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 21:04
Look people, a potentially valid and interesting topic is being poisoned by a misleading headline and nationalist sentiments already apparent on this thread.

1) Could the US have won without French help?  We don't know, we really don't, how can we?  No attempt to answer such a 'what if' of history can qualify as more than mere speculation.  I'll say this though, the rebels were most certainly not on their last throes.  One should be reminded that the French assistance came after the decisive rebel victory at Saratoga.  The British were planning to run through the Hudson Valley of New York, severing the patriot stronghold of New England from the rest of the colonies.  Instead, it was the rebels who did the severing, they prevented the British in Canada from linking up with the British in New York.  For the rest of the war, both forces would sit idly by while the British concoct a new plan to win by attacking the southern colonies.

2) Did the French intervention contribute greatly to the rebel victory? It most certainly did.  The French contribute money, supplies, well-trained troops, but the biggest boon to the rebels was probably the French Navy which, as others have mentioned, defeated the British Navy off Chesapeake Bay and bottled the British up at Yorktown, ending the war. 

But as others have mentioned, this was one of many factors which contributed to the eventual rebel victory, and a factor which may not have even come into play had the rebels not displayed their military competency by winning at Saratoga.  The title for this topic is offensive and misleading, however critical the French contribution actually was.  To say the French won the American Revolution is like saying the US won WW2 because their industrial capacity, far greater than any in the world, contributed greatly to the victory over the Axis. 

In essence, only facts are relevant in a discussion of history.  Nationalist sentiments are unnecessary, poison good judgment and analysis, and thus should be left behind.




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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 11:59
Well, Koichi, you do have a point with regard to how present day sensitivities are effecting vision into the past in terms of rendering judgment. In many ways, people often forget to assess the capacity of the 18th century state in terms of military logistics for the sustenance of continued warfare and why the prolonged occupation of hostile territory  was tenuous in terms of supply lines. I am surprised that no one has mentioned that while fleets may deploy in the pursuit of military objectives, their offensive capacity in terms of the defense of regular commerce is very limited outside the convoy system. By 1779 British commerce with their Caribbean colonies was in disarray and losses steadily mounted during the years 1780-1781. Privateers holding Letters of Marque from the rebel Continental Congress alone captured or destroyed some 600 British commercial vessels between 1776 and 1782 [a good book on the subject: Edgar Stanton Maclay. A History of American Privateers (1970)]. And these losses do not even consider the activity of the Dutch and the Spanish Guarda Costa from Havana by 1779. Even the prolonged defense of Gibraltar from Spanish siege had a serious effect on British naval capacity in terms of the colonial revolt and the defense of the West Indies. By the time the French mounted an offensive in the Indian Ocean, the British navy was already extended beyond its capacities despite the naval victory at the Saintes in April 1782. There is a good summary on-line with an ample bibliography:
 
What is surprising, however, and Koichi implied as much in his first point, is the failure to note that British tactics in North America did not ensure control of the countryside. And nothing underscores this point better than the campaign undertaken by Cornwallis from Charleston that did end at Yorktown.


Edited by drgonzaga - 14-Dec-2007 at 12:00
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 17:22
Originally posted by Koichi

Look people, a potentially valid and interesting topic is being poisoned by a misleading headline and nationalist sentiments already apparent on this thread.

1) Could the US have won without French help?  We don't know, we really don't, how can we?  No attempt to answer such a 'what if' of history can qualify as more than mere speculation.  I'll say this though, the rebels were most certainly not on their last throes.  One should be reminded that the French assistance came after the decisive rebel victory at Saratoga.  The British were planning to run through the Hudson Valley of New York, severing the patriot stronghold of New England from the rest of the colonies.  Instead, it was the rebels who did the severing, they prevented the British in Canada from linking up with the British in New York.  For the rest of the war, both forces would sit idly by while the British concoct a new plan to win by attacking the southern colonies.

2) Did the French intervention contribute greatly to the rebel victory? It most certainly did.  The French contribute money, supplies, well-trained troops, but the biggest boon to the rebels was probably the French Navy which, as others have mentioned, defeated the British Navy off Chesapeake Bay and bottled the British up at Yorktown, ending the war. 

But as others have mentioned, this was one of many factors which contributed to the eventual rebel victory, and a factor which may not have even come into play had the rebels not displayed their military competency by winning at Saratoga.  The title for this topic is offensive and misleading, however critical the French contribution actually was.  To say the French won the American Revolution is like saying the US won WW2 because their industrial capacity, far greater than any in the world, contributed greatly to the victory over the Axis. 

In essence, only facts are relevant in a discussion of history.  Nationalist sentiments are unnecessary, poison good judgment and analysis, and thus should be left behind.






And this post isn't full of nationalist sentiments?
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 18:08
Well, challenger, you could always assign the loss to the treacherous behavior of the Whigs and their failure to fully support the crown in its policies for the centralization of government and the regularization of needed taxation! Wink
 
Poor Lord North, he had enough of a time maintaining the Treasury and one could just as well blame that nitwit Lord George Germain for the series of disastrous decisions with regard to the Americans and the conduct of the military for the suppression of the revolt...then there was Charles Fox as well as the remnants of the Chathamites. Lord, it was a headache ruling over all of these digruntled gents. And then there was the rapproachment between North and Fox that actually led to the rise of Pitt the Younger--a dangerous imperialist that one but by the time he took over the government in 1784, the peace had already been negotiated.Cheeky 
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  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 20:07
Originally posted by Challenger2




Originally posted by gcle2003

..That's not the same thing as saying that the rebels could not have possibly succeeded in the longer term. I'd speculate that the rebellion would have been quelled in the 'eighties, but that the Americans would have taken advantage of the Napoleonic wars to break free at that point.
Who says there would have been any Napoleonic wars without the events that followed colonial Independence, i.e. the French Revolution. Smile

The US was far away and rather inconsequential at the time. If the cost of the war in America hadn't been among the things screwing up the French monarchy's finances prior to the revolution, sooner or later something else would. Regardless of which event would be the exact trigger, French society was badly in need of reform. It was set to blow regardless of US independance.
One must not insult the future.
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  Quote Koichi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 20:43
Originally posted by Challenger2



And this post isn't full of nationalist sentiments?


What did I say before?  Only two things belong in a history discussion, a logical argument supported by facts, facts, and more facts.  Saying the rebels won a victory at Saratoga isn't nationalist sentiment, it is a fact.  Saying that the British forces in Canada and New York didn't join up after this battle is also a fact.  Saying the French contributed to the rebel cause and defeated the British off of Chesapeake Bay is just that, a fact.

So if you have any facts to contend against what I wrote, feel free to bring it up.  Otherwise, do us a favor and save board space.


Edited by Koichi - 14-Dec-2007 at 20:51
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 12:27
Originally posted by Koichi

Originally posted by Challenger2



And this post isn't full of nationalist sentiments?


What did I say before?  Only two things belong in a history discussion, a logical argument supported by facts, facts, and more facts.  Saying the rebels won a victory at Saratoga isn't nationalist sentiment, it is a fact.  Saying that the British forces in Canada and New York didn't join up after this battle is also a fact.  Saying the French contributed to the rebel cause and defeated the British off of Chesapeake Bay is just that, a fact.

So if you have any facts to contend against what I wrote, feel free to bring it up.  Otherwise, do us a favor and save board space.
 

My, what a dull existence you must lead in your black and white world of factual certainties and absolutes. Wink Unfortunately the study of history is rarely if ever so cut and dried.

 

To remind you of what you actually said, I'll say this though, the rebels were most certainly not on their last throes.  One should be reminded that the French assistance came after the decisive rebel victory at Saratoga.  The British were planning to run through the Hudson Valley of New York, severing the patriot stronghold of New England from the rest of the colonies.  Instead, it was the rebels who did the severing, they prevented the British in Canada from linking up with the British in New York.

 

This is certainly one interpretation of events, probably the one favoured by American nationalistic school history books, for all I know, but the facts are not so clear cut.

 

After Howes capture of Philadelphia, the rebel cause was in fact all but lost, true Massachusetts and Rhode Island were still hotbeds of insurrection, but with the seat of the rebel government and administration having fled to York, Pennsylvania, and thinking of dispersing altogether [as well as plotting to remove the inept General Washington], without the events surrounding Saratoga the rebellion would have collapsed into at best isolated guerrilla bands terrorising the countryside. Certainly the French would not have entered the conflict, and might even have decided to cut their losses supplying their proxies.  
 

As regards the Saratoga campaign, there was never a formal plan to strike down from Canada to cut New England off from the Central colonies in conjunction with an attack from the coast. Such an idea had been mooted several times before but the local British forces lacked the resources to accomplish such a move. Burgoyne, however successfully lobbied Lord Germain to allow him to make the attempt, despite the fact that Howe had expressly written to Germain discounting any such attempt from the coast; his target for the next campaigning season, given the available forces at his disposal, being Philadelphia and the defeat or destruction of the main rebel army.

 

I dont intend to dwell on the events of the campaign other than to say despite the efforts and advice of his subordinates; Burgoyne manoeuvred himself into an untenable position, and in the custom and traditions of 18th century warfare, asked Gates for terms. There was no decisive victory at Saratoga, given there wasnt even a battle there. Gates, faced with the prospect of a fight to the death, as threatened by Burgoyne, which would have caused severe casualties to his forces regardless of the outcome, and aware of a British column of indeterminate strength thought to be advancing on Albany, agreed to a Convention whereby Burgoynes force would cease further hostilities and be allowed to leave America providing they did not return for the duration of the conflict. The British laid down their arms in good faith, and were marched off, pending their evacuation.

 

The rebel Congress subsequently [treacherously and shamefully, in the mores of the time] reneged on the Convention at the instigation of George Washington, [who was desperate to hold on to his position and now saw Gates as a serious rival for C-in-C], and the British troops were subsequently taken prisoner.

 

Rebel propaganda, it has to be said, brilliantly turned these events into a major crushing victory for the rebellion. This had a devastating effect on both Colonial and British public opinion. It revitalised the rebellion, severely damaged the British Governments credibility, gave the French the excuse they were looking for to openly enter the war and seemingly proved the British were not invincible in open battle. So the American nationalist myth of the Battle of Saratoga was born.

 

In essence, only facts are relevant in a discussion of history.  Nationalist sentiments are unnecessary, poison good judgment and analysis, and thus should be left behind.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Your statement consists of American facts, mine of British facts, which of us is correct? Thats what these forums are about, the exploration of interpretations of historical events. I dont mind being proved wrong, but, for what its worth, what I find offensive is the sort of attitude that turns facts into dogma. Historical fundamentalism is just as bad as religious fundamentalism.
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 14:49
Well the facts in question, Challenger, say otherwise no matter what bend or twist interpretation might take. Granted one might discuss perspectives, but before you suddenly provoke a renewal of drums along the Mohawk, let us stay away from such modern conventions as "public opinion". What is normally addressed as the "Battle of Saratoga" is really a more complex event and Saratoga was essentially the point to where Burgoyne retreated after defeats at Bemis Heights and Freeman's Farm and the defeat of his foraging parties at the Battle of Bennington in Vermont.
 
We will leave aside the incompetent Horatio Gates (better he should have defected to the Brits than Benedict Arnold) so as to underscore that technically, Burgoyne was outnumbered two-to-one and his bluster of a fight-to-the-death is somewhat imaginative on your part given the results of the actual encounters that forced Burgoyne into his "untenable" position and had already caused some 1,600 casualties to a force of about 7 to 8 thousand men. Given that Gates had some 15,000 men at his disposal (including the militias from Virginia, New Hampshire, New York, and Massachussets), we are addressing an encounter much like the later event at Yorktown. The real issue here is that professional troops are not supposed to lose to such rag-tag gatherings--after all those Germans were expensive--and no matter how much you would like to project an effective 20th century propaganda machine back onto the 18th century the effort is an irrelevancy.
 
Now as for your cavil over calling the encounter the Battle of Saratoga, could one not say the same thing for the more formidable Battle of Waterloo?
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  Quote Koichi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 15:21
It might surprise Challenger2 to know that our 'nationalistic' history books tell us the same exact version of events and that upon close inspection of the facts, it doesn't help his argument any.

I could argue that in every reasonable interpretation of the events, the British have suffered a catastrophic defeat.  They started out with a bad strategy.  Gen. Burgoyne wanted to march down the Hudson Valley but was unsupported by Gen. Howe, who moved onto Philadelphia.  By Challenger2's own admission, Gen. Burgoyne marched his own men into an untenable position. The same rebels which were supposed to be on their last throes arrayed a numerically superior force and whittled down on Burgoyne's men as they marched hundreds of miles into hostile territory, such that by the time of the convention, the British effective strength was a fraction of their numbers.  I could argue that whatever the convention said, the removal of Burgoyne and 8,000 of his men from the order of battle, whether they ended up in England (assuming the British keep their word of course) or Virginia, could be interpreted in every reasonable way as a resounding victory for the rebels.

Or I could argue that the actual events of Saratoga aren't as relevant as the effect it had on the war.   The results at Saratoga had two critical consequences: first, it rejuvenated rebel morale, ensuring the war could continue, and eventually succeed in their favor.  Second, it brought about the French intervention. 
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  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 18:12
Ah, the Koichi-Doctor Gonzaga tag team again. Big%20smile

I posted in order to demonstrate that so called "facts" are almost always distorted by nationalistic or personal bias. Before we resume this entertaining debate, can one, or both of you, give me some examples of how "a potentially valid and interesting topic is being poisoned by a misleading headline and nationalist sentiments already apparent on this thread." ? Confused
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 19:20
Shades of parliamentary pip-squeaking and recalcitrant Tories, must we resucitate the Whig version of historical events? Challenger, I would be the first to admit that while the "facts" of history remained fixed, historians are forever manipulating the same data in order to devise new soundings. There are myths aplenty in the national conscience and the history of England is replete with them; yet, one can also say that perception at longer distances should never be permitted to trump the impact of the immediate.  As matters go, the significance of events in the Hudson Valley while no big shakes in terms of grand warfare did underscore that a professional army can become victim to an aroused rabble (as Napoleon's generals would learn in the Iberian peninsula a generation later).  After all, the ministry in London had thought that the simple interdiction of Boston would have put paid to all the noise back in 1775, of course it did not and the occupation of New York City while logistically sound in terms of naval considerations and supply became more or less a comfortable prison given that the subsequent venture to Philadelphia did nothing to dissolve the rebellion no matter how many pacific Quakers--I've always liked the story of Jefferson not being up to snuff when the Brits neared the Virginia capital. Anyway, to put it into a British popitical context, those damn Whigs kicked the royal arse again!Cry
 
Anyway, I had earlier posted my assessment as to the limits of 18th century warfare and the financial wherewithall for long distance campaigning. Now, what I do wonder about is whether or not there were discussions in cabinet demanding an increase in troop levels?Big%20smile 
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  Quote HaloChanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 19:58
Ah, the Koichi-Doctor Gonzaga tag team again
 
- Oh yes, our local "we hate historian history" tag-team. "Damn the facts, damn political history, damn the sources!"
 
Don't worry Challenger2 you're not alone Wink
 
Kind regards,

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