Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Did the French win the American Revolution?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Crystall View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 28-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 114 		  Quote Crystall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did the French win the American Revolution?
    Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 14:48
I have been in debate with a friend... and he said that basically the view around the world is that the french won the revolution for the US, and without France the US would not have won... and went so far to say the US could not and would not without France helping.
 
How true is this and what exactly are the French contributions to the American revolution?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 15:14

Well, I have heared that the Spanish contribution to the American revolution was quite important too. Not only the French.

It is funny that Spaniards and French contributed with the Americans to break free, and against the British. The American revolution, after all, was an inspiration to the French revolution which ended with Napoleon in power and with him invading Spain. And because of that the Spanish colonies broke free LOL.
 
In short, the envy and conflicts between Europeans allowed people of the Americas to break free.
 
Pinguin
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 19:51
The French achieved their staretegic objectives in the North American theater, else where they were pretty convincingly defeated.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 07:27
 
Originally posted by Sparten

The French achieved their staretegic objectives in the North American theater, else where they were pretty convincingly defeated.
 
I think that's pretty well true.
 
The original question however was not did the French win the war from their point of view, but did French intervention win the war for the colonies.
 
The key factors there are the Battle of the Chesapeake, the only major fleet engagement won by the French (or anyone else) against the British in the 18th-19th centuries. If that had gone the other way, Yorktown would not have fallen, the British government would not have resigned as a result, negotiations would not have started in Paris, and at the very least the war would have gone on a lot longer. (And in fact French land forces played a very significant part in the battle of Yorktown itself.)
 
It's summed up pretty well on wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Chesapeake
 
Check out too the siege of Yorktown at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Yorktown
 
Back to Top
andrew View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 31-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 09:26
Not really, they were imperative in the Siege of Yorktown defeating the British fleet leaving their army strounded and unable to leave. They did send support, but were very reluctant thinking this would make a direct clash with Britain who pretty much owned them so they wondered is it worth it? Therefore the Americans had to prove that they can beat Britain and as they started to gain victories, such as Saratoga and Ticonderoga, did they join and help America.
 
Still, they gave them money but not much else. They gave them money and professionals to train their army, also note so did the Prussians. At the end of the war America was indebted to France but to also the Swedes, Prussians, and Dutch for money. The French played a large role but not enough to be the deciding factor, I think the Americans were.
 
So why do Americans hate the French so much?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 10:08
The N American theater was a sideshow from 1778 onwards for both powers. The French aims were that the colonies could divert enough forces away from Europe, the W Indies and India, so the French could retake their lost colonies and a bit more. That did not happen, the British did not introduce significant forces after '78, and were able to hold the French elesewhere.
Back to Top
The_Jackal_God View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 13-Dec-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 157 		  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 13:02
i it's interesting to compare the british response to the american revolution and to the Boer uprising. in light of the staggering effort put into crushing the Boers, maybe you could credit the british for the success of the american revolution.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 20:24

Or the Indian Mutiny?

Different era, different situation. The American revolution as mentioned elsewhere, became a war with far more than N America at stake. Also the war was very unpoplar at home, with the colonists having much symphaty and support in the mother country as illustrated by what a friend told the British CinC N America, before he left to take up his post, "sir I wish you luck, I do not wish you success."
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1042 		  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 22:43
The French did indeed assist the Americans in their fight for independence, however, to assume that the Americans wouldve lost without French help, would be invalid, especially since no one could possibly know exactly what might of occured, had the French not intervened.
Back to Top
Kevin View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
AE Editor

Joined: 27-Apr-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 767 		  Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 12:57
Originally posted by Penelope

The French did indeed assist the Americans in their fight for independence, however, to assume that the Americans wouldve lost without French help, would be invalid, especially since no one could possibly know exactly what might of occured, had the French not intervened.


Agreed the American colonists could have won without French and Spanish along with the help of others, Although it would have been a much more difficult going. 
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 17:49
Originally posted by Kevin

Originally posted by Penelope

The French did indeed assist the Americans in their fight for independence, however, to assume that the Americans wouldve lost without French help, would be invalid, especially since no one could possibly know exactly what might of occured, had the French not intervened.


Agreed the American colonists could have won without French and Spanish along with the help of others, Although it would have been a much more difficult going. 


Nonsense. Without French support the rebellion would have been quashed. It was on its last legs until the rebels broke their word at  Saratoga.
Back to Top
andrew View Drop Down
Earl
Earl


Joined: 31-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2007 at 18:56

The 'Rebels' first had to show they can achieve a victory. The Spanish and Frech woulnd't of joined the 'Rebels' had it have been squashed without their support. You ally yourself with the winning side.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 06:47
Without the French assistance that led to the victories of the Chesapeake and Yorktown, Lord North would have stayed in office, peace negotiations would not have started, and the fighting would have gone on.
 
That's not the same thing as saying that the rebels could not have possibly succeeded in the longer term. I'd speculate that the rebellion would have been quelled in the 'eighties, but that the Americans would have taken advantage of the Napoleonic wars to break free at that point.
 
However, what would have happened without the French is pure speculation. What did happen was that French support won the war.
Back to Top
AndronicusRex View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard
Avatar

Joined: 27-Sep-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote AndronicusRex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:57
The fighting might have gone on longer, but the American rebels would have still won in the long run.  Facing essentially a guerilla campaign with grass-roots support would have eventually driven the British to the negotiating table.  French assistance merely sped up the process.
Andronicus Rex, Noble of the Republic

http://angryamericanaristocrat.blogspot.com/
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 02:11

But then the British would have been able to send many more reinforcements than they actually did, plus they would have not had to decide between the American Colonies and other places which were more important.
Back to Top
Penelope View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Alia Atreides

Joined: 26-Aug-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1042 		  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 04:32
Originally posted by Sparten

But then the British would have been able to send many more reinforcements than they actually did, plus they would have not had to decide between the American Colonies and other places which were more important.

 
Even if the British had a sufficient amount of troops to fight on the battlefield, they still would have lacked enough manpower to occupy every single colony.  
Back to Top
Justinian View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
King of Númenor

Joined: 11-Nov-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 04:43
Originally posted by Crystall

I have been in debate with a friend... and he said that basically the view around the world is that the french won the revolution for the US, and without France the US would not have won... and went so far to say the US could not and would not without France helping.
 
How true is this and what exactly are the French contributions to the American revolution?
Well I would say he is incorrect.  I think this idea that the french won the revolution for the U.S. is because of the french revolution.  Most historians concede that one of the main reasons for the revolution was the state going bankrupt due to the funding of the american revolution.  Did they help the americans win?  Certainly, but if memory serves so did the spanish.  Could the americans have won without french help, not sure.  I think we still would have had a reasonable chance.  There were a lot of european powers who were just itching to help someone beat the british.  The main french contribution was the french navy and french experts helping to train the americans and also fight with them.  I think someone else would have lent their military experts (didn't one of the german powers also do that?) and in regards to the french navy, I don't really know enough to gauge its importance other than when it trapped the british fleet in 1781 with cornwallis at the siege of yorktown, which helped their land forces under Rochambeau and our forces under Washington all but end the war in our favor.
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 12:35
Originally posted by Sparten

But then the British would have been able to send many more reinforcements than they actually did, plus they would have not had to decide between the American Colonies and other places which were more important.

 
They wouldn't have been able to do that from 1793 to 1815, twenty-odd years in which the British had a lot more on their minds than quelling a rebellion in colonies that weren't very profitable anyway.
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 17:47
Originally posted by gcle2003

..That's not the same thing as saying that the rebels could not have possibly succeeded in the longer term. I'd speculate that the rebellion would have been quelled in the 'eighties, but that the Americans would have taken advantage of the Napoleonic wars to break free at that point.


Who says there would have been any Napoleonic wars without the events that followed colonial Independence, i.e. the French Revolution. Smile
Back to Top
Challenger2 View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar
Suspended

Joined: 28-Apr-2007
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Oct-2007 at 17:50
Originally posted by Sparten

Or the Indian Mutiny?

Different era, different situation. The American revolution as mentioned elsewhere, became a war with far more than N America at stake. Also the war was very unpoplar at home, with the colonists having much symphaty and support in the mother country as illustrated by what a friend told the British CinC N America, before he left to take up his post, "sir I wish you luck, I do not wish you success."


True in 1776, but afterwards the British saw the American rebellion as a direct assault on British Liberty. The rebels were seen as Monarchists and Jacobites; sympathy soon evaporated!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.065 seconds.