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Are Albanians related to Greeks?

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  Quote Bosnjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
    Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 20:47

Some Serbian Nationalist claim that Albanians were imported by the Osmans from the Caucasus to the Balkan Peninsula.

 

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 23:27
While it is true that there was in fact an "Albania" in the Caucasus during Hellenistic and Roman times, these Caucasian Albanians spoke a Caucasian language related to Lezgian.  The language of the present-day Udis seems to be the modern descendant of ancient Albanian.  The language of the Balkan Albanians however, is an IE language.  IE languages are inflective languages while Caucasian languages are agglutinative. 
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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 00:26

Albanian language made its first formal appearance in the 1500s. The Albanian national identity was "created" by the same time.

There is little doubt that the Osmanli "imported" a large mass of Caucasian Albanian, as loyal subjects and mercenaries into the Balkans. And, yes, they settled them in the land known now as Albania or "Shqiperia" as its inhabitants call it.

But it would be not very accurate to attribute the ethnogenesis of the Albanian people solely to those Caucasian Albanian. Sure they added to the mix, but they were not the only ones.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the Albanians are indeed Illyrians (as they claim, in order to facilitate the very Balkanic "I was here before you") moreso they are a mixture of various elements - among these of course Illyric, but also Latin, Thracic, Slavic, Greek, Turkic and certainly the Albanians of Caucasus.

On a related topic, there seems to be a certain controversy as to where this name (Albania) comes from. Several theories:

- Latin word for "white" (Alba)

- Tribe of Albi or Alvoi or Alvanoi (a small and rather insignificant mountainous Illyrian tribe, first recorded by Greek geographers in the 2nd century AD).

- The Caucasian Albanians (and that begs for another answer: where did they get the "Albanian" name themselves...)

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 00:55

I've been trying to find documentation on the so-called Ottoman "importation" of Caucasian Albanians but with no luck.  Instead I found this from the History Channel Forums:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100034 380&tstart=0&start=-1

This theory seems to make more sense.  The Armenians seemed to have absorbed Caucasian Albania by the 7th century and the name no longer is extant even to the present day in the region.  Then the western Balkan Albanians are in evidence by the 15th century.  If in the period between these dates the name was no longer extant, how could Ottomans supposedly imported "Albanians"?. 

Caution however is warranted.  The book that he quotes from, I have, and that quote is taken out of context.  Just after that sentence he writes "Nor should one be less cautious towards the authenticity of the vivid protrayals of defeated Illyrians by Roman sculptors..."  In other words the anthropological and artistic portrayals of Illyrians are inconclusive.  On the other hand he does describe continuity of archaeological evidence down to the appearance of the "Arbanites" in the 11th century.  He also stresses that the name Albanian in the eastern Balkans is older than the name Shqiper- which only occurrs in the wake of the Ottoman invasions of the Balkans in the 15th century. 

 

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 19:41
There are actually several theories about the origin of the Albanians.

Actually it wasn't the Ottomans that converted the Albanians of Caucasus to Islam and later used them as shock troops but the Arabs in the 7th cent.

With the coming of the Arabs, they converted the Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them (Albanians) from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and Christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgios Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.

Avery interesting fact is that the Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.

Some, of a long list of examples:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Chechen=aakharkho,Albanian=katundar,English=peasan t
Chechen=alsamoo,Albanian=me shume,English=more
Chechen=aagan,Albanian=eker,English=wild
Of course you'd need to know the languages in order to understand the sound similarity, since spelling doesn't really help.

These are just a few, of the many identically named towns, cities and villages in Albania and the Caucasus :

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
(Turks and Balkan peoples call Albanians by this name; likely from arch. Turk: Arran)
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria

The Albanian language is totally alien to Illyrian (based on the Messapic inscriptions found)

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMΛ, RRYMΛ, CURRIL, RRΛKE, PΛRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOΗAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VΛLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHΛM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKΛLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDΛRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTΛ, THANTΛ
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFΛ
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZΛ
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBΛSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRΛ, DASHUR, SJELLSHΛM

Now if we look at whatsome linguists have said, we once again see that the possibility of Albanians being connected to Illyria is "slim"

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, Zum Stand der Illyristik (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

Sorry bout the long post.

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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 23:02

Very good analysis, Phallanx. Gives us all much food for thought.

Sharrukin, the Word Shqiper (people of the eagle, or something like that) was used practically after the Byzantine empire has seized to exist. And of course long after Georgios Kastriotis (the national hero of the Albanian nation - interestingly he precedes the Albanian nation itself ) has adopted the Byzantine Imperial Eagle as his symbol... I see a clear connection here.



Edited by Aristoteles
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 02:57
Originally posted by Aristoteles

Very good analysis, Phallanx. Gives us all much food for thought.

Sharrukin, the Word Shqiper (people of the eagle, or something like that) was used practically after the Byzantine empire has seized to exist. And of course long after Georgios Kastriotis (the national hero of the Albanian nation - interestingly he precedes the Albanian nation itself ) has adopted the Byzantine Imperial Eagle as his symbol... I see a clear connection here.

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.

 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:48
Alparslan

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.


It would be even more interesting if it was actually true.

Seljuks??????

The city of Constandinopole was originally dedicated to Artemis/Diana who's symbol was the cresent, only later to be dedicated to the virgin Mary who's symbol the star, and was added to the cresent on the flags. There are numerous accounts, that when the Turks took possesion of Constandinopole they saw many flags with the star and cresent and adopted them as an omen of good luck and it was similar to the tamgha of the house of Osman, that was a bow. After that it became the symbol of Muslim identity.


Albanians????

Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area of Illyria and Hellas, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.


Venetians and Genoises Italians?????

Despotate of Morea

Cantacuzenus dynasty
Manuel        &nbs p;         1348&nbs p;   1380    son of John VI
Matthew        &nb sp;        1380 &nb sp;  1383    son of John VI
Demetrius        & nbsp;     1383    1383    son of Matthew

Palaeologus dynasty
Theodore I         ;      1383    1407    son of John V
Theodore II       &nbs p;     1407    1443    son of Manuel II
Constantine XI Dragases        1428    1449    son of Manuel II
Thomas        &nbs p;         &nbs p; 1428    1460    son of Manuel II


1460: The Turks, under Mehmet II, conquer Morea

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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:54
Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

The Imperian Eagle symbol came from Rome long before the Seljuk Turks were on the scene.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 15:57
Man, was my post off topic or what?
For some reason I was fixed on the cresent star symbol. LOL
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:09
some little corrections

illyrian---------------------------albanian

barba(swamp)-------------------berrak (swampy soil) balta (soil)
bra(brother)---------------------vlla not velle(brother)
b-->v  'v' is many times changed into 'b' in ind.eu.langauges...like Europa-Evropa; Basil-Vasil, Beta-Veta...
can(dog)------------------------qen(dog)
mag(great)----------------------madh(great)
plo(strong, powerful)-------------plot(alot, numerous)
rinos(clouds)---------------------reh(clouds)
tertigio (a merchant)-------------tregtar, trege(market)

this are maybes, (questionable)
lugo(pool)------------------------liqen(lake)
the alb.word "liqen" it is clearly of the origin of the latin word "laecius", where the letter "c" is very easily to be replaced with albanian "q"..si kilo, qillo etc...(kilogram)
metu(between)-------------------midis,mes(between)
daunus(is not wolf?)--------------------dhemb or dhamb, dhune(teeth)
*dhaw- 'to suppress, to kill' -------   dhune
brisa (husks of grapes)------------bistak(grapes)

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:21

Originally posted by Phallanx

Alparslan

Byzantine Imperial Eagle symbol was taken from Seljuk Turks.

Albanians were living in Balkans when Ottomans entered to the Balkans but in fact there were not Greeks in Greece!!!  Athens was only a small village. Ottomans fought against Venetians and Genoises Italians to take the Morea and other islands. Most probably Greeks are related with Albanians and of course with Bulgarians.


It would be even more interesting if it was actually true.

Seljuks??????

The city of Constandinopole was originally dedicated to Artemis/Diana who's symbol was the cresent, only later to be dedicated to the virgin Mary who's symbol the star, and was added to the cresent on the flags. There are numerous accounts, that when the Turks took possesion of Constandinopole they saw many flags with the star and cresent and adopted them as an omen of good luck and it was similar to the tamgha of the house of Osman, that was a bow. After that it became the symbol of Muslim identity.


Albanians????

Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area of Illyria and Hellas, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.


Venetians and Genoises Italians?????

Despotate of Morea

Cantacuzenus dynasty
Manuel        &n bs p;         1348&nbs p;   1380    son of John VI
Matthew        & nb sp;        1380 &nb sp;  1383    son of John VI
Demetrius        &am p; nbsp;     1383    1383    son of Matthew

Palaeologus dynasty
Theodore I         ;      1383    1407    son of John V
Theodore II       &nbs p;     1407    1443    son of Manuel II
Constantine XI Dragases        1428    1449    son of Manuel II
Thomas        &n bs p;         & ;nbs p; 1428    1460    son of Manuel II


1460: The Turks, under Mehmet II, conquer Morea

 

To the right you see the flag of Turkiye. There are many imitators, but they are just that... Due to the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star (Sun during the Ottoman Empire) are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia.

 Its origins are not Arabic or Persian and it can not be Islamic due to the strict, religious doctrines forbiding the usage of any symbols or the painting/drawing/sclupting of human faces... these very important religious facts are disregarded today by those trying to claim the Moon & Star as their own today.

Needless to say, the origins of the Crescent & Sun/star are in fact Turkish from ancient times, pre-Islamic. The Turks believed in Shamanisim and more importantly the one supreme Sky God (Tanri) along side others gods like that of the Moon & Sun, when they roamed nomadicaly on horseback in the steppes of Siberia & central Asia.

In the 10th century, the Turks accepted Islam on their own will and conquered the Middle East. Witin a few centuries, the Turks became extremely powerful and strected an empire from the gates of Vienna, Austria, Russia all the way to Spain in the west. They brought into Islam their own free spirit, dynamizm, Turkish culture, superstitions and serious beliefs as well. This is the origin of how the Crescent Moon & Star came into the Islamic world.

 The importance of the celestial bodies can be seen in many Turk epics, poems, songs, names etc... One quick example is that of the legendary leader of the Western Turks, Oguz Khan, named his first 3 born Sun, Moon, & Star emphasizing the importance of the celestial objects to Turks. The founder of the Ottoman Turkish empire, Osman, had a dream in which he invisioned a Crescent Moon stretching over the Earth, he took it as a good sign and made it the symbol of his dynasty. Where ever a Turkish army met with a Euro-Christian one, of course it would be seen that the Turks used a Moon and Europeans assumed that this was the symbol of Islam used by muslim people. [this was wrong of course, as I said no symbols are allowed, but Turks quite often incorporated their own beliefs and free spirit regarding the religion]

 So, over the 1,000 year fight of Muslim Turk and Christian Europe, the symbols have come to be mistakingly representative of Islam by Europeans and now the world. The Crescent Moon and Star are ancient Turkish celestial symbols of power originating from the Turkish, ancestoral lands of Siberia and Central Asia. You see for a 1000 years Turks were the warriors, the leaders of Islam so it is not unusual that our symbols have been adopted by many present-day countries that are by a majority muslim. But it doesn't mean that the symbols are Islamic or muslim. Unfortunately, this confusion will most likely never be cleared up. It is very deep in the minds of the world, even the Muslim world.

Interesting note: The representative color of all Turks in the world is Skyblue or Turquiose, but we have also ascribed color to the four cardinal directions (North=Black, East=SkyBlue, South=White, & West=Red). Therefore, the Red background is used to indicate that we are the most geographically western of our family. (Over time and among the folk, the color has also come to represent the Turkish blood shed over the centuries of warfare.)

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 10:37

The Ottoman flag was not formed when they saw the flags in the way to stanbul. It was gifted to Ertugrul Begh, Osman Gazi's father as a "sancak" of his "uchbeghlik" by Aleaddin Keykubad, the khan of Seljuks of Rum...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Mar-2005 at 12:04
Also some little corrections

Albo-Bushati (name of an Albanian tribe) is the transform of the name catolic balsha in myslim bushati
Albo-Bashkimi (united) is a toponim of last 50 year(during the comunist regime)
Albo-Ballaj,Balli (signify front)
Albo-Bathore (field of bean) bath (an type of bean)
Albo-Geg ---Is not an toponim, but an goup of people
Albo-Demir Kapia is not an albanian term, is an turkish term
Albo-Kish, Kisha...(Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish") kish-a signify church
Albo-Luginasi (significaty valley)
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi, Sheshani (significaty square)
Albo-Shkoder from the ancient Scodra
Albo-Shekulli (is not name of vilage sigjificaty century from latin)

in albanian some term are from the ancient greek
shpelle , moker , draper , qershi etj

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  Quote Kuu-ukko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2005 at 12:59
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities


Edited by Kuu-ukko
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2005 at 18:06
Originally posted by Aristoteles

Albanian language made its first formal appearance in the 1500s. The Albanian national identity was "created" by the same time.

There is little doubt that the Osmanli "imported" a large mass of Caucasian Albanian, as loyal subjects and mercenaries into the Balkans. And, yes, they settled them in the land known now as Albania or "Shqiperia" as its inhabitants call it.

But it would be not very accurate to attribute the ethnogenesis of the Albanian people solely to those Caucasian Albanian. Sure they added to the mix, but they were not the only ones.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the Albanians are indeed Illyrians (as they claim, in order to facilitate the very Balkanic "I was here before you") moreso they are a mixture of various elements - among these of course Illyric, but also Latin, Thracic, Slavic, Greek, Turkic and certainly the Albanians of Caucasus.

On a related topic, there seems to be a certain controversy as to where this name (Albania) comes from. Several theories:

- Latin word for "white" (Alba)

- Tribe of Albi or Alvoi or Alvanoi (a small and rather insignificant mountainous Illyrian tribe, first recorded by Greek geographers in the 2nd century AD).

- The Caucasian Albanians (and that begs for another answer: where did they get the "Albanian" name themselves...)

For many years is supposed that Albanians came from too many places that includes from Scotland To Mongolia.I have 2 simple questions for you

1.At what year the name Greek(greeks)was used?

2.Where was the boundary of the known hellenic people according o ancient historygraphers as Plinius, Strabonus ecc.?

Now i'm telling you something about the etimiology of the Albanian appelative.It was a medieval name as one of the little tribes living here.The earlier name was Arberia.As to your ideas that albanians came from caucasus i think that e descendance of thousands people in the 1033 across Europe will be notified by the historians. According to Strabonus the north of Peloponesus was inabitated by barbarian tribes(didn't spoke a language comprensive of Strabonus).To the other hand none of the Illyrians tribes was named albi nor alva neither alvanoi.Probably the map you've seen(if you really have seen one)is medieval.Genetically speaking(and this is a science not an opinion)is more likely that the socalled odiern greeks came from caucasus.Albanians are bracicefals and not dodikocefals as the habitants of caucasus or the mediterrenean peoples.At the other hand Albania was occupied from turks 73 years after whole balkans(the so called Greece too)was occupied.It's not possible that turks have imported caucasic tribes only in albania and nothing at the other countries occupied  for so many years.To the albanian ethnogenesis i can se that the latins weren't interessed to colonize(maybe a small part of amministrative)other countries,with the thracs maybe this is true near the boundary.But you must explain me what you intend when you say Thracs.Turning ourselves to the Albanian language it was written in many epitaphes and statues found from Austria to Thesaloniki.Can you explain me the odiern greek when was written?And you know that you can't tell me that was the language of Homer or Aristotelis.So don't tell to the others "your" story making a system only basing yourself to the origin of amedieval name.

 

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  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 00:51
Scotland?
I hope your not confusing it with Albany which is something different.
Arrrgh!!"
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  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 01:59

Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam.

Just to remind you Ottoman Empire. Algeria and Tunusia was inside the Empire during 300 years. Morocco was outside of the empire.

 

 

 

 



Edited by Alparslan
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eaglecap View Drop Down
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 02:35
The Greek population was not displaced by Albanians and if fact there were many Greeks in the lower Balkans by the arrival of the Ottomans Turks. I would agree there Greeks today do have a mix of various ethnic groups. Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along." Some great scholars on this topic are; Steven Runciman and John Julius Norwich. I would add more but it is late!! Pacific standard time-USA

Were you talking about the two headed eagle? If so, that goes way back to the ancient Hittites, long before the Turkish incursion. The eagle was the standard of the Roman Empire, also long before the Turks came.

The eagle totem is a common symbols in cultures throughout the world, even in Mexico before the white man came.

See legend below:

By AD 1325, according to legend, the wandering Mexica tribe (Aztecs) wished to build a permanent city. They have been told by the gods to build their city in the spot where an eagle, perched on a cactus, would be seen eating a snake. The symbols were found in a region of lakes and islands. It was in this area where the Aztecs founded their great city of Tenochtitln, right where we have today's Mexico City.
http://www.gnosticassociationny.org/eagle_legend.htm
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Qnzkid711 View Drop Down
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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 15:38

http://geocities.com/protoillyrian/serb.html

The topic he talks about is Caucasian Albanians and Balkan Albanian. Warning. Its damn long.




Edited by Qnzkid711
"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.
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