in a coventional war who would have won u

Italy was also hemmed in by a Neutral Switzerland and Yugoslavia, but they could get troop into France.

I don't think either side would have AS per see. I think the Air defeses in western europe coupled with better US/ Euro Air forces to include the French Mirage which was a battle tested excellent Air craft would prevent the WP from any type of air cover into the west. However, I don't think NATO would have free skies over eastern europe either.

Air Defense   1987 US study of WP

The USSR continues to modernize and expand what is already the most extensive strategic air defense network in the world. The mission is to be carried out by a strong pre-positioned national air defense force established in peacetime according to a unified concept and plan. The leadership appears to be in constant search for the optimum organizational structure of the air defense assets.

Major organizational changes instituted in 1980 transferred control of air defense aircraft, SAMs, and radars from national air defense authorities to local military district commanders. This change was probably implemented to provide battlefield commanders with greater flexibility. Even after reorganizing, the Soviets appeared to be dissatisfied with their air defense structure.

More recent shifts are apparently resubordinating surface-to-air missiles and aircraft back to the national air defense forces. The rationale may involve a desire for greater centralized control over weapons rather than the flexibility of the local commander in making certain decisions.

The Soviets have deployed a large number of strategic air defense systems with capabilities against aircraft flying at medium and high altitudes. They are now in the midst of a major effort to improve their capabilities against aircraft and cruise missiles that operate at low altitudes.

This effort includes upgrading their early warning and surveillance systems; deployment of more efficient data-transmission systems; as well as development and initial deployment of new aircraft, associated air-to-air missiles, SAMs, and airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft.

Currently, the Soviets have more than 9,000 strategic SAM launchers, nearly 5,000 tactical SAM launchers (excluding handheld), and some 10,000 air defense radars. Approximately 2,250 air defense forces interceptor aircraft are dedicated to strategic defense. An additional 2,100 interceptors assigned to Soviet air Forces could be drawn upon for strategic defense missions. Collectively, these assets present a formidable defense barrier.

Maximus you are showing aircraft which most of european airforces were not equipped with.

These are the aircrafts of western European air forces:

Edited by Mosquito - 15-Jul-2010 at 03:15

Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus I The French and the Dutch would not sit it out. More than likley it would be France and Holland saving Europe in 77 becuase at that time the plan called for a sacrifice of West Germany create as much hell is you could in Germany then make a stand at The Rhine.

Where do you get your info?  the F-16 was standard NATO since 1979 for the Dutch, Danes and Nords.

I don't doubt that the Russians could make it to the Rhine but that is where they had lose, they then would be in a protracted war with NATO and they could not sustain it. For the Russians to win they need to take the COGs of NATO (Paris and London) only then would a peace be brokered, they couldn't so WP would lose.

Well, we tend to leave out the Western Navies! I know that it is said that the WP had a plan to destroy all Western carriers! But, that is easier said than done! For one, if the Western carrier groups were placed in a stand off position, they could, as was mentioned, only be attacked in a conventional manner by either long range bombers, who would be easy prey for the F-14's, etc., and/or by one way suicide attacks. In other words the attacking aircraft could reach the carrier groups but had no chance of returning to a safe airfield.

If indeed WP pilots had the desire to make a one way attack, then I would suspect that the WP was also willing to loose at least 500 aircraft and pilots! Of course my 500 is merely a guess, but F-14's could take out enemy aircraft over 1,000 miles from the fleet, then return and reload.

But, if such an attack was not successful, then the WP faced even more problems. And, one has to realize that not all Western carriers whould actually be in a position to be attacked in force by the WP! They would then form up again, and face the next attack, if any could then be organzed.

Again, the WP number of actual tanks, and tanks actually capable of fighting is somewhat of a fake number, that is, as I have already mentioned, a big difference when that is taken into account! Thus, it is possible that after the first three days of the conflict, their might well be but about 15,000 to 20,000 WP tanks still in service?

If the West only had 9,000 battle ready tanks available, and assuming that these tanks were formed into battle some where West of the initial attacks, then with a 4 to 5 to one kill ratio, they could actually take care of the 15 to 20 thousand WP tanks! Especially if the WP was forced into the already designated killing areas! It is mostly a matter of the distance the Western tanks could take on and destroy the WP tanks!

Thus you would attack, destroy and move back to another safe distance and repeat step one, etc.! Taking this scenerio as possible, then the WP tanks would rarely get off a good shot at the Western tanks!

Note, that if the WP was able to control the skies for very long, then this scenerio would not hold for long, but as has been mentioned, there is little doubt that NATO forces whould have long since have bombed or mined all of the attacking forces airfields, leaving them forced to abandon their aircraft or die!

Note again, this is 1987!

But, all of war is sometimes based upon pure chance! And, communications! Thus a "convential EMP device or devices" spread arround W. Europe, might well have taken out most of NATO's communications and radar coverage?

Take that away, and NATO could well be overrun!

Who really knows?

But, it is fun to consider all of the "what if's?"

Edited by opuslola - 15-Jul-2010 at 08:00

As for anti aircraft defence NATO didnt have anything better than this Soviet system:

Edited by Mosquito - 15-Jul-2010 at 07:39