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in a coventional war who would have won u |
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TheGreatSimba 
Chieftain 
Joined: 22-Nov-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1152 |
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 Topic: in a coventional war who would have won uPosted: 14-Jul-2010 at 07:32 |
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Voices of reason, thanks!
Mosquito doesnt consider the following things: 1) NATO war plans 2) NATO readiness (NATO was always on alert regarding events in WP countries, they would never have been able to make a surprise attack) 3) NATO technological superiority 4) NATO economic superiority. 5) Quality of NATO troops By the 1980's, the Soviet Union was but a shadow of its former self, it couldnt compete with the United States in any field. |
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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Mosquito
Caliph 
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 07:46 |
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Maximus, could you find please how big were US forces in Europe in 80ties of 20th century? Amount of soldiers, tanks and aircrafts?
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 07:59 |
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It would have been very difficult for NATO forces to advance easily, they would have had to stop and move the hulks of the T72's and the T 80's. The T 80 is a good tank, it just has the same fatal design flaw that the T 72 has, there isn't any protection against their own ammo blowing up when hit. As a matter of fact the old joke about the Sherman tank being called the Ronson, because it lights every time, was revived with the T 72 replacing the Sherman.
There are more than a few reasons why The Warsaw Pact forces would have had a tough time of it.
Opuslola has hit on some of them.
He skipped over a few though. The F117 was operational, but the WP forces didn't know that, and they certainly didn't figure on the superiority of the Abrams. [I don't believe anyone US or WP really knew how big a gap that was until the Gulf War.]
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 08:16 |
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The NATO planners always knew that the WP forces would have numbers on their side, weapons developement and deployment was done always with that in mind. So don't look at the Quantity, look at the Quality.
A former roomate from Uni somehow managed to talk himself into a lt. Col. by the late 80's.
  His views were a little scary at the time. He figured that any conflict would turn into a major Nuke exchange between US and Soviet Russia. The reason being the WP would have "had their butts handed to them on a plate" in a conventional war. In order to save face they would have used their long range nukes.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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opuslola
Tsar 
suspended Joined: 23-Sep-2009 Location: Long Beach, MS, Online Status: Offline Posts: 4620 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 08:31 |
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Well you are right Red! I did miss some stuff, like the Warthog! If the F-15's and 16's, etc., could keep the Soviet fighters off of them, then the Warthogs would have run through the Soviet armour like crap through a Goose!
Just think, valleys full of T-72 or 80's, and all of that depleted uranium just waiting for a good home! And speaking of the Red Air Force, they might well have dominated for a while, but would they have any airfields left to return to after the stealth bombs started falling? There are tons of things to consider, especially in the 1980's! This is an interesting topic and I enjoy it immensly! Regards, |
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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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TheGreatSimba
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Nov-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1152 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 08:32 |
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Why this emphasis on the US troops? British, French, Italian, and West German troops alone, alongside the Americans on the continent, would have been able to halt a WP advance. Mosquito, you have to accept the fact that a conventional war would have turn into a long term war, with NATO eventually winning because of economic superiority. Like Red Clay said, WP war plans included heavy use of nukes for the sole reason that they could not compete conventionally with NATO forces. Quality over quantity, you can have a million man army, but if they have inferior weaponry and inferior training, they can and will be defeated by a much smaller, better trained, better equiped, and organized force. |
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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Maximus Germanicus I
Knight 
Suspended Joined: 26-Jun-2010 Location: US Online Status: Offline Posts: 85 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 10:44 |
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I don't think the WP ever would have had Air Superiority at any time during the war-They would not have been able to crack western ADA. Our ADA coupled with our fighters would have rendered the WP AIrforces useless.
The Mosq talks about the GRAD and the Uragan the effective range is 35K (22 Miles)--Hell we have tube Artillery with RAPs that can smack you at 35K.
Compare this to the MLRS (you know steel rain, 1 shot 1 grid square, the 90K sniper rifle)
MLRS was developed jointly by the United Kingdom, United States, Germany, and France. It was developed from the older General Support Rocket System (GSRS).
The rockets and ATACMS missiles are contained in interchangeable pods. Each pod contains six standard rockets or one guided ATACMS missile (the two types cannot be mixed). The launcher can hold two pods at a time, which it loads using an integrated crane. All twelve rockets or two ATACMS missiles can be fired in under a minute. One launcher firing twelve rockets can completely blanket one square kilometer with submunitions. For this reason, the MLRS is sometimes referred to as the "Grid Square Removal Service"[1] (metric maps are usually divided up into 1km grids). The MLRS can shoot and scout the WP UG requires a Pan Tele and takes up to 20 minutes to lay, the MLRS battery does not nead to lay therefore it can shoot move and communicate making countery battry fire very difficult at best.
Further the Reload time is 4 min for the MLRS vs 20 min for the UG
The Range is from 32 to 90 KM depending the rockets used.
Some the Rocket packages that the M270 sports are:
The M270 system can fire MFOM, MLRS Family Of Munition rockets and artillery missiles, which are manufactured and used by a number of countries. These include:
Edited by Maximus Germanicus I - 14-Jul-2010 at 10:46 |
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Cryptic
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 11:13 |
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The Warsaw Pact could have won between 1970-1982. The claim that NATO always enjoyed a huge technological supereority is a myth. The NATO technological gap only became huge after the Reagan build up.
Consider the Warsaw Pact advangates in 1977:
-A U.S. Army with many internal problems after Vietnam
-Warsaw Pact has numerical advantage and some pretty good quality: T-72s, BMPS, sophisticated (for the time) and mobile SAMS, heavy rocket systems (Soviet specialty) etc
-There are either no or very few F-16s, M-1s, Bradleys, Apaches, advanced Leopards, stealth fighters, cruise missiles in the NATO inventory
-Internal political problems with in NATO could lead to some members only offering token forces to meet treaty obligations. (Especially if Soviet propaganda could show that U.S. provoked the war).
- Soviets have already compensated for unethusiastic Warsaw Pact members.
The results.... Warsaw Pact starts a sudden pre emptive strike, good Soviet propaganda leads Spain, Italy, Netherlands and Greece to make only token commitments. The French sit it out. Turkey is left alone and is busy watching Greece. Da 'Pact (mostly Soviet) steadily steamrollers the American, West German and British forces in the FDR. 30 days later, Game is over. NATO loses. Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jul-2010 at 11:34 |
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TheGreatSimba
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Nov-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1152 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 11:43 |
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But we are talking about 1987. By that time, NATO far surpassed WP countries.
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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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red clay
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Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 12:30 |
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Yeah, get with it. The man put up the year 1987, not 1977.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 14:14 |
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Well, whatever I did said before, I dont really belive that in 1987 WP would defeat NATO in the conventional war. To say the truth most of Soviet satelite countries wouldnt like to fight either, they would go to war only with soviet machine guns behind their back.
However, on the maps and plans of WP, it was looking much better than in the reality. But year 1987 was the time when communism was about to fell. For example in Poland in 1980 communists had to introduce martial law, to keep the society under control. One of the reasons why Poland wasnt invaded by Warsaw Pact forces was that Polish generals were not able to guarantee that Polish soldiers will stay idle in such situation. The soldiers were conscripts who felt to be more related with the society they were coming from than with communist party. Not to mention that opposition in Poland in 1980 had 10 millions registered members while communist party only a little bit more than 1 million.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 14:21 |
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But as for air superiority still noone told me how strong were the US forces in Europe. As for european air forces if Im not wrong - only the French had good equimpment and numbers. If i remember well most of RAF were harriers and Tornados, western Germans had Tornados - and those planes were not able to fight as equal against modern soviet fighters such as Migs 29. In fact even F 16 were not quite equal opponents for Migs.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 17:19 |
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Yikes, he did say "1977"
. 1987 was probably "one year too far" for the Warsaw Pact. Even a year or two, however, could make a huge difference in the amount of hi tech equipment the Soviets would be facing. I think that a Sovet victory was feasible, though unlikely, as late as 1985.
I think the F-16 had the edge on the MIG 29. Also, with the Reagan build up, the USA was probably producing more F-16s than the Soviet Union was MIG-29s. Then factor in Hornets, Tomcats and Eagles. The bankrupt Soviets could not produce advanced MIGs or sukhois in quantity.
True, but the Soviets already knew that most Warsaw PAct troops were unreliable and they planned acordingly. Soviet battle plans called for Poland, East Germany to merely defend their air space and supply only a small number of elite units (paratroopers, marines) for special missions.
Also, not all NATO allies were going to be fully committed to ground combat unless they were directly threatned by the Soviets. I have a suspision that NATO members such as Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, France and maybe the Netherlands would have discovered reasons to keep their armies home and in uhmmmm " strategic reserve" against other possible Soviet offensives. Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jul-2010 at 17:35 |
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TheGreatSimba
Chieftain
Joined: 22-Nov-2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1152 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 17:23 |
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One thing I have yet to hear anyone mention is that once the Soviets fell behind with regards to computer technology, they started an espionage program in order to steal western computer technology.
What the Soviets didnt know was that the United States found out and was feeding the Soviets false technology for years. For example, the US would intentionally "give" soviet spies computer technology in which the programs were designed to crash after a certain period. This was a huge nuisance to the Soviets, who didnt have a clue what was happening. This could have played a huge factor in a soviet defeat. Edited by TheGreatSimba - 14-Jul-2010 at 17:24 |
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I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time.
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 17:44 |
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Not quite truth. Polish army was supposed to occupy Northern Germany and to launch amfibious invasion of Denmark.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 18:26 |
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Ok, it was more than just super elite units. But was that the entire Polish conscript army to be used? Or was the Polish contribution to be the Airborne Division, Marine Division and a mechanized division or two of known reliability?
Also, Polish units may have fought well due to their military professionalism and not for communism or for Russians. In addition, the Soviets probably would ensure that the selected Polish units would be fighting mostly Germans, and not British or American units. Edited by Cryptic - 14-Jul-2010 at 18:27 |
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Maximus Germanicus I
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Suspended Joined: 26-Jun-2010 Location: US Online Status: Offline Posts: 85 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 22:21 |
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Do you really think the Poles would have fought for the WP in 87-- Had a war brohen out I can see the Czechs, Hungarians and Poles all leading major Rebellions against the Soviets.
I don't see the WP winning in 77 either, It would have been a lot closer. However western tank technology was already ahead of the WP (as evidenced by the performace of the PT vs the T-72 is the Isreali -Egyptian war)
The wireguided missles were perfected at that time (the came out in the Vietnam era)
The French and the Dutch would not sit it out. More than likley it would be France and Holland saving Europe in 77 becuase at that time the plan called for a sacrifice of West Germany create as much hell is you could in Germany then make a stand at The Rhine. Even though France had formally pulled out of the NATO peace time structure they were still part of the wartime structure and planning.
France and Holland were to make a stand at the Rhine allowing REFORGER (return of forces to Germany) to take place. At the time the Russians reached the Rhine most US troops and West german troops would be killed or destroyed. REFORGER is the move of the rest of the British, Canadian and American troops into locations in France and Holland.
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Maximus Germanicus I
Knight
Suspended Joined: 26-Jun-2010 Location: US Online Status: Offline Posts: 85 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 22:27 |
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France remained a member of the alliance, and committed to the defence of Europe from possible Communist attack with its own forces stationed in the Federal Republic of Germany throughout the Cold War. A series of secret accords between U.S. and French officials, the Lemnitzer-Ailleret Agreements, detailed how French forces would dovetail back into NATO's command structure should East-West hostilities break out.[
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Maximus Germanicus I
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Suspended Joined: 26-Jun-2010 Location: US Online Status: Offline Posts: 85 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2010 at 22:31 |
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The one huge advantge that the WP did have was in APCs the BDRM and BMP were excellent APCs and the WP Mech infantry could move swiftley--They are also designed to swim (BDRM), however the Rhine was to big and swift for them, but they coul dcross small rivers rather quickly (quickley being relative to amphibs, you could prob swim almost as fast) but they didn't need to bridge.
Edited by Maximus Germanicus I - 14-Jul-2010 at 22:35 |
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Mosquito
Caliph
Suspended Joined: 05-Aug-2004 Location: Sarmatia Online Status: Offline Posts: 2537 |
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Posted: 15-Jul-2010 at 00:45 |
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How many Tomcats, F16, Hornets and eagles were in Europe? As I said before, The British and Germans had only harriers and Tornados (if I rmember well the Germans had also outdated F104 starfighters). Only french Mirages were modern fighter planes. It might be funny but after reunification of Germany and joining eastern and western German armies together, the most modern fighter plane of German air forces were eastern German Mig's 29.
Italian army shouldnt be counted except for ariforces because between Italy and Germany was neutral Austria. Edited by Mosquito - 15-Jul-2010 at 00:52 |
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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