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Polish Winged Hussars?

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Poll Question: Were the Winged Hussars the best cavalry untis in the time period?
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73 [60.33%]
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TJK View Drop Down
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish Winged Hussars?
    Posted: 06-Sep-2004 at 09:12

Manchu Banner soldier about 1800

Manchu Banner soldier (circa 1800)

Circassian cavalry (circa 1800) 

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2004 at 14:58
Hmm. small horses, spears, no armour, no firearms. They doesnt look like guys who would be able to defeat winged husars, especially because they also fought tartars and knew that kind of enemy. And in close comabt i guess they would be smashed, no matter how good riders they were.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Sep-2004 at 15:01
Originally posted by Mosquito

Hmm. small horses, spears, no armour, no firearms. They doesnt look like guys who would be able to defeat winged husars, especially because they also fought tartars and knew that kind of enemy. And in close comabt i guess they would be smashed, no matter how good riders they were.

Well, horses were smaller back then. The Swedish cavalry rode animals we would call ponnies today...
I suspect continental cavalry had smaller horses too, even if not that small.

Edited by Styrbiorn
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 02:36
polish had large (really) horses
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 09:42
Average weight of the hussar's horse was slightly above 500 kg so for the modern standards they are small or average but certainly not the ponnis...
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 13:27

the armour of the bannermen was lght and effective, and thoroughly, I think they're the best worldwide, though they lacked lance-cavalry.

Circassians were light indeed, but keep in mind Hussars were not the only cavalry of Polish armies.

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2004 at 15:14
Frankly speaking I don't think any archery-based cavalry of this time could be competitive for hussars especially when they are supported by light banners (for wing protection).. 
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2004 at 11:03
Originally posted by Mosquito

Accidentally i found what was that. It was Dalmatian rider (maybe even Serb Usar) but in the Venetian serivce. They were called "stratori" or somthing like that.

You're thinking of the famous Balkan stradiotti, who were employed by the Venetians as a nice counter to Turkish light cavalry (akincis, etc).  These lightly-armored troopers fought with a light lance, a saber (sciabla), and sometimes a composite bow.  Alternatively, some stradiotti may have used the local form of straight, basket-hilted broadsword (the so-called schiavona).  They were comparable to Hungarian hussars and Spanish jinetes.

And speaking of "hussar", I'm not so sure if we have a definitive answer regarding the origins of either the word itself, of the type of soldier the word described.  AFAIK, the first troops called "hussars" were from Serbia, and they were light cavalry (as opposed to later Polish hussars).  This light type became understandably popular with the Hungarians, Transylvanians, Moldavians, etc.

As for the Polish Winged Hussars, their war record is definitely impressive, but they did indeed suffer defeats--witness the destruction of the Polish "Quarter" Army at Batoh by the Cossacks, in 1652.  It's also interesting to note that German cavalry (ritters or reiters--rajtars to the Poles) were actually paid more money than hussars were, by King John Casimir, after the fiasco at Batoh.

Peace,

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Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2004 at 11:54

AFAIK, the first troops called "hussars" were from Serbia, and they were light cavalry (as opposed to later Polish hussars).  This light type became understandably popular with the Hungarians, Transylvanians, Moldavians, etc.

Yep..they were light cavalry also in Poland up to the time of king stephan batory when they have adopt armour.

As for the Polish Winged Hussars, their war record is definitely impressive, but they did indeed suffer defeats--witness the destruction of the Polish "Quarter" Army at Batoh by the Cossacks, in 1652.

Well, I would rather not connect the slaughter at Batoh with decline of Winged Hussars. There were only 8 or 9 banners of hussars at Batoh in total about 1000 soldiers when whole polish army consist of about 10 000 soldiers. The main factor was the rebellion of polish cavalry.

It's also interesting to note that German cavalry (ritters or reiters--rajtars to the Poles) were actually paid more money than hussars were, by King John Casimir, after the fiasco at Batoh.

It is not exactly..there was not one fixed salary for certain type of soldier - it was always depend from which region soldiers were -for exapmle the quater salary of hussars from Cracow was on the level of 40 zlotych, when the hussars from Sandomierz got 60 z and from Lublin  and Belz even 80 zl. In the same period the reiters form Mazovia got 60 zl and from eczyca 60 zl...

 

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2004 at 06:20

Hello Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner (Cohort).

Here is Raf.S from THC forum.

Im glad that you decided to join this AE forum and hope that you feel well here.

Greeting from Luxor (Aegipt) to all of you and see you after ill come back home.

 

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2004 at 23:01
but as the deafeats - what army hasnt been defeated???
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 16:16
Actually, a great amount of Circassian riedrs were wearing heavy chain armor up until maybe late 18th century, they were noted to be the last heavy cavalry people(s) of Europe.
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

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  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2004 at 17:01

Isn't it beautiful...

 

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  Quote Evildoer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2004 at 06:48

The helmet in the first picture looks almost Roman. The protruding visor, and the extended backflap resembles a legionary helmet.

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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Oct-2004 at 19:21

 

 

 I think you've forgotten the Napoleonic Hussar. Under De LaSalle, they were the most feared units in Europe. They were better than the Hussars of all other europeans armies of the time and they have excellent combat record. Which Prince of Prussia did quarter master Guindet killed?

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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2004 at 13:19
Originally posted by Evildoer

The helmet in the first picture looks almost Roman. The protruding visor, and the extended backflap resembles a legionary helmet.

 

Yeah, the helmet as well as the armour (anime type) is modelled as roman.

 

I think you've forgotten the Napoleonic Hussar. Under De LaSalle, they were the most feared units in Europe. They were better than the Hussars of all other europeans armies of the time and they have excellent combat record. Which Prince of Prussia did quarter master Guindet killed?

They were excellent soldiers especially 5th and 7th (Lassale's brigade) but they belongst to the another epoch....

BTW Guindey have killed prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia at Saalfed

 

 



Edited by TJK
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  Quote Quetzalcoatl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2004 at 20:28

BTW Guindey have killed prince Louis Ferdinand of Prussia at Saalfed

 

 That Prince Fredinand was an excellent Prussian General.  It was a heavy loss to the enemy in fact, he was the only one doing everything right. How unfortunate for the Prussian. 

 

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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2004 at 20:32
Originally posted by Evildoer

The helmet in the first picture looks almost Roman. The protruding visor, and the extended backflap resembles a legionary helmet.

Well, Roman neck flaps were positioned in a more vertical manner(at least, from the Coolus onwards).  Not to mention that the 'visor' was positioned higher up in a Coolus or Imperial-Gallic helmet, and generally, didn't jut out near as much.

Not to mention that it lacks the curved ear guards(and I may have glossed it over a bit much, but do the cheek pieces seem to be so large that they don't allow room for an earhole in the Polish helmet?) of the Imperial-Gallic and Itlaic helmet designs.



Edited by Lannes
τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 14:17
Originally posted by TJK

Winged Hussars have became heavy cavalry after reforms of polish king Stephan Batory in the second half of XVI centaury. For about 50 years this formation was a king of battlefield able to crush every other or even combined formation. The best achievements were battle of Kircholm (defeat of 3xbigger Swedish army ) and battle of Klushino (defeat of 5xtimes bigger Russian army). After the reforms of Gustav Adolf western type infantry (especially Swedish) became nearly invincible for the sole cavalry action (including winged hussars). The position of the best cavalry of Europe was held however by winged hussars up to the neraly end of XVII centaury.

In XVIII centaury this formation was just obsolete and with poor morale and trainning was only a "shadow" of  XVII centaury predecessors...

So my answer is: "yes at all" for the period 1570-1620, "best in Europe" up to the 1683 and definitely "no" for the XVIII centaury...

..and I don't know how to vote      

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 14:19

First appearance of hussars dates to 1514 at the battle of Orsza.

Originally posted by TJK

Winged Hussars have became heavy cavalry after reforms of polish king Stephan Batory in the second half of XVI centaury. For about 50 years this formation was a king of battlefield able to crush every other or even combined formation. The best achievements were battle of Kircholm (defeat of 3xbigger Swedish army ) and battle of Klushino (defeat of 5xtimes bigger Russian army). After the reforms of Gustav Adolf western type infantry (especially Swedish) became nearly invincible for the sole cavalry action (including winged hussars). The position of the best cavalry of Europe was held however by winged hussars up to the neraly end of XVII centaury.

In XVIII centaury this formation was just obsolete and with poor morale and trainning was only a "shadow" of  XVII centaury predecessors...

So my answer is: "yes at all" for the period 1570-1620, "best in Europe" up to the 1683 and definitely "no" for the XVIII centaury...

..and I don't know how to vote      

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