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62nd anniversary of Hiroshima
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Peteratwar View Drop Down
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Posts: 591 		  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 62nd anniversary of Hiroshima
    Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 04:55
Given the emotive hindsight responses of many here plus various wild interpretations, can I ask if any of the posters were alive at the time ?
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 13:33
 
Iceland remembers the nuclear attacks of 1945

In memory of the atomic bomb victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Icelandic pacifists will float candles on Reykjaviks city center pond and Akureyris Minjasafn pond this evening at 22:30. Today, it is exactly 62 years since the bombings on Nagasaki.

 

The first candle floating memorial service was held in August 1985 after Japanese atomic bomb survivors sent candles to Iceland requesting support against the use of nuclear weapons.

   

At the same time as the pacifists remember those who died in the atomic bombings, they emphasize that their message, Never again Hiroshima! Never again Nagasaki, must sound and echo throughout the world. 

 

They advocate that war should never be an option, and that air raids and military power do not ensure peace.  Instead of solving the worlds problems with violence, the pacifist movement emphasizes the importance of cooperative communication to achieve a peaceful and nuclear-free world.

 

Candles will be available for purchase on location. 

I will be there tonight, all your absurd comments in my mind....



Edited by ulrich von hutten - 09-Aug-2007 at 13:36

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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 01:15
Originally posted by Feanor

Bombing a hospital is widely accepted as a war crime. Do you agree on this?
I suppose it depends on the circumstances, but yes I would say that is a war crime.  I'm guessing you're asking whether dropping the bombs would constitute a war crime.  If you are my response is that they would fit the description of war crimes.  I'll just add that world war II was a conflict where both sides committed atrocities, the axis are considered worse because the magnitude of their crimes was so much greater than the allies.  I also don't believe the allies equal good and the axis equal bad, simply that the allies were nowhere near the level of evil the axis were.  That's the problem with war crimes, war is organized chaos.  It's hard to put rules on something like human conflict when its on this scale.
 
Ulrich just because you may hold a different opinion than others doesn't make their comments absurd.  I'm sure that everyone of us on this forum would have prefered if world war two had never happened and that our relatives could have lived together in harmony, unfortunately throughout human history that has for the most part never been the case.


Edited by Justinian - 10-Aug-2007 at 01:21
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 06:22
Originally posted by Justinian

I'm sure that everyone of us on this forum would have prefered if world war two had never happened and that our relatives could have lived together in harmony, unfortunately throughout human history that has for the most part never been the case.
 
Apart from those who start war after war using this as a one of the engines for their economics. I wonder, those who support Hirosima and Nagasaki bombings, what do they think about Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Jugoslavia, Afganistan and Iraq wars? Do they support them too?
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:07

The bomb on Hiroshima was a tragedy,but inevitable,it had some positive aspects aswell,it ensured that the Atomic Bomb would never be used again,as it will never again be used.

The whole of the war was a tragedy,the Bomb was an episode of this war,and it can not be taken out of the context,whichever would have got their hands first on the Bomb would have used it,it was FORTUNATE that it was the good guys.
 
Another positive aspect out of it is that the W.W.2 could have had a nuclear war had the American not got there just before others.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Posts: 119 		  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:33
Korea - yes I fully support the UN intervention to reverse the NK aggression
Vietnam - in theory I would support - see above - but the Americans handled it badly - they lost
 
Iraq I- clearly support the war to reverse the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait - should have done the job properly though so Iraq II wouldn't have been necessary
 
Yugoslavia - support the intervention to prevent a genocide.
 
Afganistan - support the interevntion to destroy the Taliban due to the aid they gave Al Quida.  Plus they are a bunch of murdurous thugs anyway.
 
Iraq II - bit gray, there may have been legitimate reasons for invading but the most publicised ones - WMD - weren't.  Don't miss Saddam however.
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:57
so you create one genocide to prevent another? cool.
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Posts: 591 		  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 10:09
genocide seem to be a remarkably overused word. It is used in contexts where it is not really applicable and thus downgrades the real meaning of it
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 10:14
Originally posted by Peteratwar

genocide seem to be a remarkably overused word. It is used in contexts where it is not really applicable and thus downgrades the real meaning of it

Yeah, it's not genocide when Westerners do it!

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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 16:24
Mass killings on a scale never heard before in one fell swoosh. Certainly deserves some form of recognition right up their with genocide. Of course the same goes for any innocents killed in battle, which is now-a-days given the stupid moniker, collateral damage. Alright stuff happens. Downplaying it serves to justify the unjustifiable.
 
On a side note today. A General at Central Command dropped charges against a corporal and his attorney over the 2005 Hadithah massacres.
 
In his dismissal of the charges against Lance Corporal Sharratt, General Mattis has accurately and eloquently described the extreme demands placed upon combat Marines and soldiers in insurgency warfare. The dismissal of charges demonstrates that this convening authority fully understands the complex and difficult circumstances his Marines face in Iraq and Afghanistan, they said in a statement. About the complexity of this conflict and Lance Corporal Sharratts innocence, we can add nothing to the powerful words of General Mattis.
 
Granted the envioronment and circumstances were rough.
Then this:
 
Where the enemy disregards any attempt to comply with ethical norms of warfare, we exercise discipline and restraint to protect the innocent caught on the battlefield, he added. Our way is right, but it is also difficult.
 
Hogwash. The so-called 'enemy' were woman and children in bed and men who starred back! What innocents were protected? Sad day for US military justice. But as the saying goes, "Might makes right!"


Edited by Seko - 10-Aug-2007 at 16:35
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 01:25
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Justinian

I'm sure that everyone of us on this forum would have prefered if world war two had never happened and that our relatives could have lived together in harmony, unfortunately throughout human history that has for the most part never been the case.
 
Apart from those who start war after war using this as a one of the engines for their economics. I wonder, those who support Hirosima and Nagasaki bombings, what do they think about Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Jugoslavia, Afganistan and Iraq wars? Do they support them too?
No, no, no, no, no, no.  I would consider myself a pacifist.  If you had asked my 3 or more years ago I would have said yes, no, yes, yes, no, no.  For Korea to keep the aggressive north from invading the south.  For Iraq the first time from stopping an aggressive iraq from invading a weak country to the south, we should have removed sadam from power then in my opinion.  For Yugoslavia yes because of the human rights violations, though my knowledge on the subject is rather limited.


Edited by Justinian - 12-Aug-2007 at 01:26
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Posts: 28 		  Quote what_is_history Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 22:20
AMEN!  I am so tired of hearing about how horrible the "evil capitalist American empire" is.  I do believe that it was the "Evil capitalist Americans" along with the "evil British" that eliminated the threat of Hitler and the atrocities of the Japaneese Empier, which was no small task. 
"It aint what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
-Mark Twain
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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 06:33
First of all it isn't an anniversary is a commemoration.  Every human being killed in every war is a tragedy.  In some moment of time some people took some decision good or bad, you judge them from your comfortable way of life. I think we all must mourning the victims and be decent, with all our "intelligent" comments.
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 08:05
Originally posted by Richard XIII

First of all it isn't an anniversary is a commemoration.  Every human being killed in every war is a tragedy.  In some moment of time some people took some decision good or bad, you judge them from your comfortable way of life. I think we all must mourning the victims and be decent, with all our "intelligent" comments.
 
carefully worded,Richard. Nothing more to add.

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Posts: 651 		  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 08:45
thank you!
I don't know which of us are capable to  take such important  decision  and to live with it in peace. Many of our forumers are young, in this moment are three old people here me, you and Northman and is our job to make the things straight. Thank you one more time.
"I want to know God's thoughts...
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 14:42
Originally posted by what_is_history

AMEN!  I am so tired of hearing about how horrible the "evil capitalist American empire" is.  I do believe that it was the "Evil capitalist Americans" along with the "evil British" that eliminated the threat of Hitler and the atrocities of the Japaneese Empier, which was no small task. 


somehow you "forgot" that Soviet Union participated in this elimination, maybe even more than USA and UK taken together. The country which was considered by your officials as "evil". As far as I understand you forgot to mention USSR simply because this paricipation does not fit in the whole pathetics of your statement. LOL 

If you are tired listening this, vote for people who are not going to start wars using "evilness" for a reason. Besides, the fact that you are tired does not make mass killings of people less "evil" even if it is  done by brave American soldiers, democracy spreaders and the only supporters of civilized people Wink
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Posts: 28 		  Quote what_is_history Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 17:52

You missed the point.  Of course it is sad whenever anyone dies, but the point of fighting a war is to WIN IT!  You can't tell me that the Japaneese Empire or the Germans under Hitler were somehow innocent.  America did what it had to do.  Too bad you don't see it that way, but oh well.



Edited by what_is_history - 24-Aug-2007 at 17:56
"It aint what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
-Mark Twain
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 18:32
I know your point very well.  Look in this thread and you will find thaat most Americans think in the same way. I simply do not agree with it. I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese.  To me there was no right side in this War.

To stop doing something wrong you first need to realize that it is wrong. That's the first step.


Edited by Anton - 24-Aug-2007 at 18:37
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 18:36
Originally posted by Richard XIII

thank you!
I don't know which of us are capable to  take such important  decision  and to live with it in peace. Many of our forumers are young, in this moment are three old people here me, you and Northman and is our job to make the things straight. Thank you one more time.
 
I don't know about making things right but those old farts you mentioned sure do make me feel young!
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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 21:34
Originally posted by Anton

...I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese.  To me there was no right side in this War...
That is an acute observation.  It seems that it is a huge taboo to even mention the second world war in germany without feeling guilty and/or apologetic.  Japan seems to be much more relaxed in this regard and can view what happened without the guilt pouring over them.  From what I understand the swastika, Mein Kampf etc. are even illegal in germany.  I must say I was utterly dumbfounded when I first learned that, since it would be political suicide if our government tried to tell us what we can and can't read. (sadly it seems we are coming closer to that with every passing day)  Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be a pacifist of sorts, and view the allies guilty for fighting the war and killing people just like the axis.  Also how in textbooks and personal opinions in the U.S. the axis are viewed as evil incarnate while the americans and allies are shown as the saviours of civilization.  (Doesn't that sound familiar)  I agree with you completely in those two regards.  The word for it is hypocrisy.  One thing most americans don't even know is that we had our own "concentration camps" for japanese americans and italian and german nationals.Dead 
I think where we are disagreeing is that I view it as an evil that prevented greater evil, whereas you view it as evil nonetheless.  Honestly your point has more weight than mine, at the least it has the moral high ground.  Especially when I think back to the various quotes about evil breeds evil, two wrongs don't make a right etc. 
I must say I am torn, it is quite the moral dilemma. 


Edited by Justinian - 24-Aug-2007 at 21:43
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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