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Majkes
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Topic: 62nd anniversary of Hiroshima Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 12:44 |
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by Majkes
You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece. |
My opinion is based on a fact that killing of people is bad. A thing I believe to be so trivial that there is no need to repeate it. C'mon Majkes don't tell me that you don't know that main reason of any war is economical. Goal of Germans was not to destroy nations but to have an access to resources that growing German economics needed. As for the stupidity of my claim, I can only smile here
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Ok, sorry Anton for that stupidy . It wasn't stupid, You have some point there for sure but I have to say that in WWII economical reasons were not the only one. You can't deny Hitler planned to kill all Jews in Europe. He had also plans to turn Polish and other Slavs in slaves. He was a madman and because of this war wasn't like every other. Never before there were comitted such crimes. I would agree if You would say what You said about WWI but not about WWII.
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Anton
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 09:29 |
Originally posted by Majkes
You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece. |
My opinion is based on a fact that killing of people is bad. A thing I believe to be so trivial that there is no need to repeate it. C'mon Majkes don't tell me that you don't know that main reason of any war is economical. Goal of Germans was not to destroy nations but to have an access to resources that growing German economics needed. As for the stupidity of my claim, I can only smile here
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Majkes
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:28 |
Originally posted by Mortaza
will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
I am sure, jews,polish or gypsies will survive If USA does not drop an a bomb over japans. Or If Allies will not kill civilians.
I dont think we should change a japan civilian to an american one..At least, I have not such preference.
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I was refering to what Anton said that there was no right side in this war so I don't know what Your post has to do with mine . I don't support throwing bomb on Japan nor killing civilians.
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Majkes
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 08:22 |
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by Majkes
We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on... |
Dream on what? You discuss the issue in terms of historical amusements. There would be no if... I know that Americans, Russians and Britts killed many innocent people and by that way there is no difference between them and Germans or Japanese. But now there is one huge difference -- Germans and Japanese remember what have they done and will try to avoid this in future. Others keep thinking that they were right. They made wrong conclusions from the War.
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You said that to You there was no right side in this war. One of the stupidest claims I've heard on this forum. For me if one side goal was to destroy whole nations I support the other side that fought them. I suppose Your opinion is based on the fact that if Axis would win Bulgaria would grab Macedonia and parts of Greece.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:23 |
will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
I am sure, jews,polish or gypsies will survive If USA does not drop an a bomb over japans. Or If Allies will not kill civilians.
I dont think we should change a japan civilian to an american one..At least, I have not such preference.
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Anton
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:11 |
Originally posted by Majkes
We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on... |
Dream on what? You discuss the issue in terms of historical amusements. There would be no if... I know that Americans, Russians and Britts killed many innocent people and by that way there is no difference between them and Germans or Japanese. But now there is one huge difference -- Germans and Japanese remember what have they done and will try to avoid this in future. Others keep thinking that they were right. They made wrong conclusions from the War.
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Anton
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 07:03 |
Originally posted by what_is_history
I'll tell you why we are not ashamed. We didn't start the war. Read your history! |
Last 50 years you started at least 5 wars. Number of people died in these wars is comparable to number of Jews died in WWII. If I were you I would be ashamed.
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Majkes
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:58 |
Originally posted by Anton
I know your point very well. Look in this thread and you will find thaat most Americans think in the same way. I simply do not agree with it. I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese. To me there was no right side in this War.
To stop doing something wrong you first need to realize that it is wrong. That's the first step.
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We should be greatfull that not everybody were thinking like You cause we would be know living in some Nazi or Communist dictatorship. I will add that if not Russians, Brits and Americans there wouldn't be now any Jews, Polish, Gypsies, Russians etc but it doesn't seem to disturb You so dream on...
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:23 |
It didn't. I was simply trying to clarify the point, as there are a lot of people who have irrationally criticized American conduct during the war in this thread--which is quite surprising, since there are perfectly valid rational criticisms that can be made. I apologize if you felt like I was accusing you; the comment "at least not overtly" was intended to give you the opportunity to disagree if I had interpreted your original comments in a softer sense than you had intended them. In retrospect, it was I who was being reckless with my language, for which you have my apologies. In an effort to clarify certain points, I muddled the original point of your post.
-Akolouthos
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Justinian
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Posted: 25-Aug-2007 at 01:17 |
Did it come across that way? If it did then I didn't explain myself properly. There is no comparison between the two. What I mean't to say was America had some faults and biases' of its own, like the axis, but nowhere near the level of the japanese and germans. I used the word concentration camp because that is the term I have heard used for that particular situation before. Perhaps a better example would have been the racism towards minorities especially blacks in america, similar to the germans racism, just that the germans went way beyond the americans.
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Akolouthos
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 23:18 |
Originally posted by Justinian
One thing most americans don't even know is that we had our own "concentration camps" for japanese americans and italian and german nationals. |
While it is true that the internment camps represent a grave moral evil, it is ludicrous to try to establish a moral equivalency between the U.S. organized internment camps and the German extermination camps. You did not do this, at least not overtly. Still, I am responding because I feel that we need to establish the proper context in which to understand the evils committed by both the Axis and the Allies in the Second World War.
-Akolouthos
P.S. We must also remember, in the interests of understanding American xenophobia during WWII, that the U.S. internment camps for German and Italian Americans were a good bit more pleasant than those established to contain Japanese Americans.
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what_is_history
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 23:04 |
I'll tell you why we are not ashamed. We didn't start the war. Read your history!
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"It aint what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
-Mark Twain
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Justinian
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 21:34 |
Originally posted by Anton
...I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese. To me there was no right side in this War...
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That is an acute observation. It seems that it is a huge taboo to even mention the second world war in germany without feeling guilty and/or apologetic. Japan seems to be much more relaxed in this regard and can view what happened without the guilt pouring over them. From what I understand the swastika, Mein Kampf etc. are even illegal in germany. I must say I was utterly dumbfounded when I first learned that, since it would be political suicide if our government tried to tell us what we can and can't read. (sadly it seems we are coming closer to that with every passing day) Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be a pacifist of sorts, and view the allies guilty for fighting the war and killing people just like the axis. Also how in textbooks and personal opinions in the U.S. the axis are viewed as evil incarnate while the americans and allies are shown as the saviours of civilization. (Doesn't that sound familiar) I agree with you completely in those two regards. The word for it is hypocrisy. One thing most americans don't even know is that we had our own "concentration camps" for japanese americans and italian and german nationals.
I think where we are disagreeing is that I view it as an evil that prevented greater evil, whereas you view it as evil nonetheless. Honestly your point has more weight than mine, at the least it has the moral high ground. Especially when I think back to the various quotes about evil breeds evil, two wrongs don't make a right etc.
I must say I am torn, it is quite the moral dilemma.
Edited by Justinian - 24-Aug-2007 at 21:43
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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann
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Seko
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 18:36 |
Originally posted by Richard XIII
thank you! I don't know which of us are capable to take such important decision and to live with it in peace. Many of our forumers are young, in this moment are three old people here me, you and Northman and is our job to make the things straight. Thank you one more time.
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I don't know about making things right but those old farts you mentioned sure do make me feel young!
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Anton
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 18:32 |
I know your point very well. Look in this thread and you will find thaat most Americans think in the same way. I simply do not agree with it. I do not understand why present day Germans and Japanese are ashaimed of what happened but Americans, Brits and Russians are not. I do not understand why the winninng side suppose that it was more right than Germans or Japanese. To me there was no right side in this War.
To stop doing something wrong you first need to realize that it is wrong. That's the first step.
Edited by Anton - 24-Aug-2007 at 18:37
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what_is_history
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 17:52 |
You missed the point. Of course it is sad whenever anyone dies, but the point of fighting a war is to WIN IT! You can't tell me that the Japaneese Empire or the Germans under Hitler were somehow innocent. America did what it had to do. Too bad you don't see it that way, but oh well.
Edited by what_is_history - 24-Aug-2007 at 17:56
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"It aint what you don't know that gets you in trouble; it's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
-Mark Twain
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Anton
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 14:42 |
Originally posted by what_is_history
AMEN! I am so tired of hearing about how horrible the "evil capitalist American empire" is. I do believe that it was the "Evil capitalist Americans" along with the "evil British" that eliminated the threat of Hitler and the atrocities of the Japaneese Empier, which was no small task. |
somehow you "forgot" that Soviet Union participated in this elimination, maybe even more than USA and UK taken together. The country which was considered by your officials as "evil". As far as I understand you forgot to mention USSR simply because this paricipation does not fit in the whole pathetics of your statement. If you are tired listening this, vote for people who are not going to start wars using "evilness" for a reason. Besides, the fact that you are tired does not make mass killings of people less "evil" even if it is done by brave American soldiers, democracy spreaders and the only supporters of civilized people
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 08:45 |
thank you! I don't know which of us are capable to take such important decision and to live with it in peace. Many of our forumers are young, in this moment are three old people here me, you and Northman and is our job to make the things straight. Thank you one more time.
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 08:05 |
Originally posted by Richard XIII
First of all it isn't an anniversary is a commemoration. Every human being killed in every war is a tragedy. In some moment of time some people took some decision good or bad, you judge them from your comfortable way of life. I think we all must mourning the victims and be decent, with all our "intelligent" comments. |
carefully worded,Richard. Nothing more to add.
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 06:33 |
First of all it isn't an anniversary is a commemoration. Every human being killed in every war is a tragedy. In some moment of time some people took some decision good or bad, you judge them from your comfortable way of life. I think we all must mourning the victims and be decent, with all our "intelligent" comments.
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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